Water Additions.......When?

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Water Additions.......When?

Postby Cornish Knocker » Wed Sep 12, 2018 21:21

My last few brew days I've added the necessary water additions, gypsum, calcium chloride etc etc., to the strike water (I brew in a Grainfather) and then dough in. I'm now questioning myself whether this isn't the best time to do it and perhaps add them after I've doughed in might be better. Any thoughts?

Thanks

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Drinking: Drop Kick Nate
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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby london_lhr » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:39

Hi,
I would treat my water with Campden tabs as the HLT fills up.
Treat the water for alkalinity with your acid(s) of choice.
Gypsum is difficult to dissolve and dissolves better in cold water than in hot water.
Add the gypsum (calcium sulphate) to the cold water in the HLT and dissolve.
Next add the calcium chloride and dissolve.
The water is now ready to be heated to strike temp.
I personally think it is better to add all your salts to your water and treat for alkalinity before you dough in.
As you have a recirculation system, you can probably add all your salts (chlorides and sulphates) you need, mixed into your grain.
High calcium levels makes gypsum difficult to dissolve.
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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby FUBAR » Thu Sep 13, 2018 23:49

Cornish Knocker wrote:My last few brew days I've added the necessary water additions, gypsum, calcium chloride etc etc., to the strike water (I brew in a Grainfather) and then dough in. I'm now questioning myself whether this isn't the best time to do it and perhaps add them after I've doughed in might be better. Any thoughts?

Thanks


A couple of questions spring to mind .Have the beers you have brewed previously been enjoyable ?,if yes don't try to fix it if it isn't broken.

If the answer is no,have you had your water analysed accurately by someone like wallybrew on JBK? .To do any liquor treatments otherwise is a total unknown shot in the dark .

I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me- Winston Churchill.
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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby HTH1975 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:50

The information provided by Murphys regarding water treatment advises to add salts to the mash. That’s how we do it at work. The only thing added to the HLT is acids for reducing alkalinity.

2016: 330L brewed (72 gallons, over 8 firkins)
2017: 105L brewed (need to update this figure)
Drinking: Landlord clone
Conditioning: ciders from 2016, hedgerow barrolo, 1914 Courage RIS (10%).
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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby Cornish Knocker » Tue Sep 18, 2018 19:35

Thanks guys for the replies, much appreciated. I use reverse osmosis water, so I'm starting from scratch regarding water additions.

@Furbar, you're right if it aint broke etc etc. My last few beers I've made once I got my around the water additions etc have been very good. Now I feel I sort of understand water I want to try and get everything perfect.

Cheers all.

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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby INDIAPALEALE » Thu Sep 20, 2018 08:57

Cornish Knocker wrote:Thanks guys for the replies, much appreciated. I use reverse osmosis water, so I'm starting from scratch regarding water additions. .


You've been reading those Mercan beer forums . What can they teach us about beer ? :sick:

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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby FUBAR » Fri Sep 21, 2018 07:36

INDIAPALEALE wrote:
Cornish Knocker wrote:Thanks guys for the replies, much appreciated. I use reverse osmosis water, so I'm starting from scratch regarding water additions. .


You've been reading those Mercan beer forums . What can they teach us about beer ? :sick:


:clap: :thumb: Only how to make bland tasteless beer
that's nothing like the style should be .

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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby HTH1975 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:38

My biggest beef with American beers is that everything has that citrus-hop taste and aroma, regardless of style. I’ve had bitters and stouts with c-hops and it’s just awful.

The insistence on using reverse osmosis water, then building the mineral profile back up seems weird to me. Why not find out what is in your tap water, then go from there. I do that at work and we have great beers.

At home I use bottled water for pale beers and tap water for darker beers - that works great for me as it’s repeatable. The bottled water is pretty much good to go ‘as is’ with only minimal tweaks to the mineral content, so it’s convenient.

2016: 330L brewed (72 gallons, over 8 firkins)
2017: 105L brewed (need to update this figure)
Drinking: Landlord clone
Conditioning: ciders from 2016, hedgerow barrolo, 1914 Courage RIS (10%).
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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby vacant » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:42

HTH1975 wrote:The insistence on using reverse osmosis water, then building the mineral profile back up seems weird to me. Why not find out what is in your tap water, then go from there. I do that at work and we have great beers.


I agree, I bought RO water once and making up a profile is a bit of a faff but that, and a couple of bottled water brews, gave me my best beers at the time. I've got hard water (260-275 as CaCO3) and prefer pale beers.

To make things easier, I bought an RO filter for £30 and just used around 10% tap water with RO to get the profile I want. The RO water takes a day to filter and waste water also gets collected, draining to 80 & 60 ltr plastic storage boxes outside the house. Waste water is then pumped through the IC on brew day, then the now-warm waste water is used for cleaning up at the end.

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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby HTH1975 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 09:32

vacant wrote:
HTH1975 wrote:The insistence on using reverse osmosis water, then building the mineral profile back up seems weird to me. Why not find out what is in your tap water, then go from there. I do that at work and we have great beers.


I agree, I bought RO water once and making up a profile is a bit of a faff but that, and a couple of bottled water brews, gave me my best beers at the time. I've got hard water (260-275 as CaCO3) and prefer pale beers.

To make things easier, I bought an RO filter for £30 and just used around 10% tap water with RO to get the profile I want. The RO water takes a day to filter and waste water also gets collected, draining to 80 & 60 ltr plastic storage boxes outside the house. Waste water is then pumped through the IC on brew day, then the now-warm waste water is used for cleaning up at the end.


They made pale beers in Burton too, and their water was around as alkaline as yours, plus high in sulphates. They became pretty famous for their pale beers.

2016: 330L brewed (72 gallons, over 8 firkins)
2017: 105L brewed (need to update this figure)
Drinking: Landlord clone
Conditioning: ciders from 2016, hedgerow barrolo, 1914 Courage RIS (10%).
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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby robwalker » Sun Sep 30, 2018 10:34

HTH1975 wrote:The information provided by Murphys regarding water treatment advises to add salts to the mash. That’s how we do it at work. The only thing added to the HLT is acids for reducing alkalinity.


Same. I think it's just a question of whether you're getting the results though - ie correct ph readings throughout, easy to clear beer, pleasing water profile. If you are, it's working!
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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby HTH1975 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 20:44

robwalker wrote:
HTH1975 wrote:The information provided by Murphys regarding water treatment advises to add salts to the mash. That’s how we do it at work. The only thing added to the HLT is acids for reducing alkalinity.


Same. I think it's just a question of whether you're getting the results though - ie correct ph readings throughout, easy to clear beer, pleasing water profile. If you are, it's working!


If anyone was not getting the expected results after following Murphys recommendations I’d be looking closely at their processes, and probably double-checking the brewing liquor with an additional test.

2016: 330L brewed (72 gallons, over 8 firkins)
2017: 105L brewed (need to update this figure)
Drinking: Landlord clone
Conditioning: ciders from 2016, hedgerow barrolo, 1914 Courage RIS (10%).
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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby Brewzee » Wed Oct 17, 2018 06:01

Every now and then the local water board sends some right old chlorinated rubbish down the pipes. Thats the only reason I can see to use RO however I'm to tight to buy it and I don't like the throwing away plastic packaging bit. I always smell the water now as I fill my hlt.
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Re: Water Additions.......When?

Postby Aleman » Wed Oct 17, 2018 09:31

A campden tablet in the vessel and then put the water on top will deal with any chlorine issues

As for Murphys, I don't like the one size fits all approach they advocate ... Recommendations are OK, but only apply to a limited range of 'English' Beers. Also the recommendations haven't changed in 25 years, despite the increase in knowledge and techniques at our fingertips.They are biased to the products they sell, fair enough, but what if your water is not standard. you can treat a wider range of waters better using individual acids (Hydrochloric and sulphuric rather than AMS/CRS), and individual salts (calcium chloride and calcium sulphate rather than DWB / DLS). If you like a sulphate forward liquor, and that's what the Burton brewers had, then fine, if you want to go chloride forward, like Sam Smiths (Landlord anyone) then you are stuffed.

For one vessel brewing, add your campden tablet and start filling, after you have around 5L in it, add 2/3 of your acid, once you have 15L in there, add your salts. calcium sulphate is soluble!!! it is a myth (almost) that it is hard to dissolve!!! the solubility limit for calcium sulphate/gypsum is around 2.3g/l, so if you are trying to dissolve 20g in 1 litre of water you are going to fail, but dissolve the same amount in 15 to 20 litres and it happens with no issues. If you already have a high level of calcium in your liquor then you may still experience issues, but you probably won't be trying to add a huge amount of calcium anyway (or shouldn't). Still it's a good practice to add your gypsum first, and then to add any calcium chloride afterwards. Once you have all the water in the vessel measure your alkalinity again, and add the final amount of acid to bring the alkalinity where you want it to be.

The advice to add it to the mash is somewhat out of date, as there is the belief that it required the 'acids' released from the malt to help it dissolve ... it dissolves quite happily, I know a commercial brewery that adds the Acids/salts to the HLT while bringing it back up to temp first thing in the morning as they are recircing it ... then mash and sparge. It's the first 15 to 20 minutes that the mash pH is established properly, if you don't have sufficient salts dissolved at that time the pH will be all over the place

Just my thoughts ;)

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