Hop combinations

The supporting act

Re: Hop combinations

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Mon Apr 18, 2016 14:12

Rolfster wrote:
xCamel xSlayer wrote:Just the thread I was looking for.
I am looking for general advice as to HOW you select which hops to group together.
My current batch is going to be dry hopped with Centennial, Simcoe and Summit hops.
For arguments sake, lets say I want to beef this up a bit... Should I go down the road of:

a) Sticking with the same 3 types, and just increase the amount of each one?
b.1) Add another to the mix, such as Ahtanum, or Galaxy for example?
b.2) If I go with the option just above, how do you go about working out a ratio? i.e. I'll get a 100g bag no doubt, but that would seriously outshine the 75g mix of the former surely?
c) I see that some people double dry hop, several days apart. What are your thoughts on this? Waste of time or beneficial to the end product?


Sounds like a good combo to me.
Personally I would go with option a.
I have done quite a few brews that only have one hop in them to try and find out what flavour they have.
You just need those demi johns. 4 would allow 3 djs with single hops and 1 with all 3!
As for quantity I guess! Normally I go for equal quantities, but more often than not my stock lets me down.


It'd be great to gain an understanding of the science behind dry hopping a certain volume of beer. Like, surely I couldn't dry hop 75g in to a 1 Gal demi, just the same as I would do in my 5 Gal batch... That would be insane surely? I guess I'd need to work out how much to dry hop a 5 Gal batch to my liking, and then do the maths and divide by 5...
User avatar
xCamel xSlayer
Brewer
 
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 17:39
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire

Re: Hop combinations

Postby KevinS » Mon Apr 18, 2016 15:18

xCamel xSlayer wrote:I absolutely love the Vocation beers, and once again, another local to where I am.
I would love to know the quantities involved!


I spoke with Vocation about this recipe (as this is my favourite beer) and they said they use the same amount at flameout as they do for dry hop.

I would hazard a guess that between 70-100g at flameout and then the same dry hopping would get you there. For a 40 pint batch...

Certainly on the high side, but still relatively low compared to some of Brewdog's.
User avatar
KevinS
Brewer
 
Posts: 391
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 15:51
Location: Bristol

Re: Hop combinations

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Mon Apr 18, 2016 15:37

KevinS wrote:
xCamel xSlayer wrote:I absolutely love the Vocation beers, and once again, another local to where I am.
I would love to know the quantities involved!


I spoke with Vocation about this recipe (as this is my favourite beer) and they said they use the same amount at flameout as they do for dry hop.

I would hazard a guess that between 70-100g at flameout and then the same dry hopping would get you there. For a 40 pint batch...

Certainly on the high side, but still relatively low compared to some of Brewdog's.


I'm glad they are so approachable on the subject, it's nice to know for the future.
Vocation are quickly becoming a favourite of mine now I've rattled through part of their range.
Have you ever made an attempt at a clone, or are you planning to at some point? *HINT* :party:

Also... is that 100g per hop variety?
User avatar
xCamel xSlayer
Brewer
 
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 17:39
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire

Re: Hop combinations

Postby Mr. Dripping » Mon Apr 18, 2016 16:20

Goldings blend well with absolutely anything.....well, everything that I've tried :D

Simcoe & Citra go well together.
Centennial and Cascade is another good combo.

Double dry hopping is quite a good technique to get a bit more ooomph.
I also regularly make an Epic Pale Ale clone.....all cascades with 2 lots of dry hops, one at fermentation temperature and the second at 4 deg C.
User avatar
Mr. Dripping
Brewer
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 16:55

Re: Hop combinations

Postby Monte Cristo » Mon Apr 18, 2016 16:28

Glad this has been revived.
Here's another one I thought went famously well together.

Challenger and East Kent holdings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Next Brew AG. 62
User avatar
Monte Cristo
Brewer
 
Posts: 641
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 23:11
Location: Liversedge, West Yorkshire

Re: Hop combinations

Postby Rolfster » Mon Apr 18, 2016 19:29

xCamel xSlayer wrote:
Rolfster wrote:
xCamel xSlayer wrote:Just the thread I was looking for.
I am looking for general advice as to HOW you select which hops to group together.
My current batch is going to be dry hopped with Centennial, Simcoe and Summit hops.
For arguments sake, lets say I want to beef this up a bit... Should I go down the road of:

a) Sticking with the same 3 types, and just increase the amount of each one?
b.1) Add another to the mix, such as Ahtanum, or Galaxy for example?
b.2) If I go with the option just above, how do you go about working out a ratio? i.e. I'll get a 100g bag no doubt, but that would seriously outshine the 75g mix of the former surely?
c) I see that some people double dry hop, several days apart. What are your thoughts on this? Waste of time or beneficial to the end product?


Sounds like a good combo to me.
Personally I would go with option a.
I have done quite a few brews that only have one hop in them to try and find out what flavour they have.
You just need those demi johns. 4 would allow 3 djs with single hops and 1 with all 3!
As for quantity I guess! Normally I go for equal quantities, but more often than not my stock lets me down.


It'd be great to gain an understanding of the science behind dry hopping a certain volume of beer. Like, surely I couldn't dry hop 75g in to a 1 Gal demi, just the same as I would do in my 5 Gal batch... That would be insane surely? I guess I'd need to work out how much to dry hop a 5 Gal batch to my liking, and then do the maths and divide by 5...


Some people give their dry hopping quantities in grams per liter. I'm at about 60-90 grams per 20 litre.
Not sure if that helps!
User avatar
Rolfster
Brewer
 
Posts: 1790
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 22:30
Location: Sheffield

Re: Hop combinations

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Mon Apr 18, 2016 19:44

Rolfster wrote:
xCamel xSlayer wrote:
Rolfster wrote:
xCamel xSlayer wrote:Just the thread I was looking for.
I am looking for general advice as to HOW you select which hops to group together.
My current batch is going to be dry hopped with Centennial, Simcoe and Summit hops.
For arguments sake, lets say I want to beef this up a bit... Should I go down the road of:

a) Sticking with the same 3 types, and just increase the amount of each one?
b.1) Add another to the mix, such as Ahtanum, or Galaxy for example?
b.2) If I go with the option just above, how do you go about working out a ratio? i.e. I'll get a 100g bag no doubt, but that would seriously outshine the 75g mix of the former surely?
c) I see that some people double dry hop, several days apart. What are your thoughts on this? Waste of time or beneficial to the end product?


Sounds like a good combo to me.
Personally I would go with option a.
I have done quite a few brews that only have one hop in them to try and find out what flavour they have.
You just need those demi johns. 4 would allow 3 djs with single hops and 1 with all 3!
As for quantity I guess! Normally I go for equal quantities, but more often than not my stock lets me down.


It'd be great to gain an understanding of the science behind dry hopping a certain volume of beer. Like, surely I couldn't dry hop 75g in to a 1 Gal demi, just the same as I would do in my 5 Gal batch... That would be insane surely? I guess I'd need to work out how much to dry hop a 5 Gal batch to my liking, and then do the maths and divide by 5...


Some people give their dry hopping quantities in grams per liter. I'm at about 60-90 grams per 20 litre.
Not sure if that helps!


No of course it is, everything is valuable here!
I'm basing my theory on my first brew whereby I dry hopped with 100g... once it matures properly I'll work out if that was enough or if I need to increase my levels.

Eventually I'll try some SMASH beers and see what I prefer that way
User avatar
xCamel xSlayer
Brewer
 
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 17:39
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire

Re: Hop combinations

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:49

Just purchased some Citra, Summit, and Simcoe.... the latter two will be used to boost my Razorback IPA with a double dry hop, and the Citra, to be used as a dry hop in demi's.
My second brew day is turning in to an experimental one, but what the results will be is another question entirely haha!
User avatar
xCamel xSlayer
Brewer
 
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 17:39
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire

Re: Hop combinations

Postby ockelford » Tue Apr 19, 2016 21:08

I've been following this with interest. Vocation brew around 10 miles from us by road (just over the hill) and I spoke with a brewery from Leeds (zapatto) who also gave some interesting insights on the whole thing.

It seems that flame out hops give much less efficiency than whirlpooled hops (in terms of aroma) and overcompensation with dry hopping can even end up with astringency, so hop selection and exposure times need to be considered. In addition, you'll notice that a tin of vocation doesn't pour clear - and the hop flavour is impressive - and I think this is largely due to the way yeast in suspension affects flavour (pretty sure they do't filter the beer), though that's just a theory, not sure if it is due to the yeast, or bits of hop floating, and a 4 month old tin may start to taste awful - I've never kept one that long....

Another factor is the way larger volumes interact with the hops - sometimes you can't scale a recipe, it just won't work the same small scale and you're never sure how to modify to compensate.

My interpretation is that this is very complex. And probably the only way to get what we want is to experiment, but until then, enjoy the journey.

R
User avatar
ockelford
Brewer
 
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 17:30
Location: Walsden, West Yorkshire

Re: Hop combinations

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Wed Apr 20, 2016 15:38

ockelford wrote:I've been following this with interest. Vocation brew around 10 miles from us by road (just over the hill) and I spoke with a brewery from Leeds (zapatto) who also gave some interesting insights on the whole thing.

It seems that flame out hops give much less efficiency than whirlpooled hops (in terms of aroma) and overcompensation with dry hopping can even end up with astringency, so hop selection and exposure times need to be considered. In addition, you'll notice that a tin of vocation doesn't pour clear - and the hop flavour is impressive - and I think this is largely due to the way yeast in suspension affects flavour (pretty sure they do't filter the beer), though that's just a theory, not sure if it is due to the yeast, or bits of hop floating, and a 4 month old tin may start to taste awful - I've never kept one that long....

Another factor is the way larger volumes interact with the hops - sometimes you can't scale a recipe, it just won't work the same small scale and you're never sure how to modify to compensate.

My interpretation is that this is very complex. And probably the only way to get what we want is to experiment, but until then, enjoy the journey.

R


Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question, but I am just trying to get my head around what is and what isn't good about hazy/non-clear bear.
We talk about cold crashing, which is a common practice for home brewers so would these breweries do the same?
When you refer to them not pouring clear, what does that actually mean in the terms of the process?
Is it a suggestion that "cold crashing to clear" isn't always a good thing?
User avatar
xCamel xSlayer
Brewer
 
Posts: 1045
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 17:39
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire

Re: Hop combinations

Postby ockelford » Wed Apr 20, 2016 17:18

xCamel xSlayer wrote:
ockelford wrote:I've been following this with interest. Vocation brew around 10 miles from us by road (just over the hill) and I spoke with a brewery from Leeds (zapatto) who also gave some interesting insights on the whole thing.

It seems that flame out hops give much less efficiency than whirlpooled hops (in terms of aroma) and overcompensation with dry hopping can even end up with astringency, so hop selection and exposure times need to be considered. In addition, you'll notice that a tin of vocation doesn't pour clear - and the hop flavour is impressive - and I think this is largely due to the way yeast in suspension affects flavour (pretty sure they do't filter the beer), though that's just a theory, not sure if it is due to the yeast, or bits of hop floating, and a 4 month old tin may start to taste awful - I've never kept one that long....

Another factor is the way larger volumes interact with the hops - sometimes you can't scale a recipe, it just won't work the same small scale and you're never sure how to modify to compensate.

My interpretation is that this is very complex. And probably the only way to get what we want is to experiment, but until then, enjoy the journey.

R


Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question, but I am just trying to get my head around what is and what isn't good about hazy/non-clear bear.
We talk about cold crashing, which is a common practice for home brewers so would these breweries do the same?
When you refer to them not pouring clear, what does that actually mean in the terms of the process?
Is it a suggestion that "cold crashing to clear" isn't always a good thing?


I guess they're precisely the questions everyone is asking, and due to the and numerous viewpoints held, there is no answer. I suppose that its just worth noting that anything you do will change the outcome. Filtering is known to reduce certain flavours, which makes sense - you're taking somethingout.

I made a very hoppy ale with oily hops and it tasted fuller with a little yeast from the bottle poured in, which was as much an experiment as anything. Im not saying its right or wrong, and i actually felt cold crashing would have improved it, as i think the yeast in the bottle was affecting the flavour badly after a few weeks, but the fact was, it made a difference.

There comes a point where, after certain given best practises are followed, it starts to very quickly become a case of which methods works best for what you're trying to achieve. I know cold crashing in the fermenter is a common practice as a couple of breweries i know of, I'm trying it on my next beeras I've just built a brew fridge.

There will come a point where you may realise making mistakes is a very educational activity, and may aid the creative side of what you're doing, but in any case there is never a single answer.

In response to your earlier post as well.... Go for it with 75g hops in a gallon. Sounds fun.!
User avatar
ockelford
Brewer
 
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 17:30
Location: Walsden, West Yorkshire

Re: Hop combinations

Postby ockelford » Wed Apr 20, 2016 17:20

Oh, you should do side by side comparisons. Try cold crashing half the batch, see how they compare! A good experiment, and you get to drink it all!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
User avatar
ockelford
Brewer
 
Posts: 292
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 17:30
Location: Walsden, West Yorkshire

Re: Hop combinations

Postby robwalker » Wed Apr 20, 2016 17:37

ockelford wrote:
xCamel xSlayer wrote:
ockelford wrote:I've been following this with interest. Vocation brew around 10 miles from us by road (just over the hill) and I spoke with a brewery from Leeds (zapatto) who also gave some interesting insights on the whole thing.

It seems that flame out hops give much less efficiency than whirlpooled hops (in terms of aroma) and overcompensation with dry hopping can even end up with astringency, so hop selection and exposure times need to be considered. In addition, you'll notice that a tin of vocation doesn't pour clear - and the hop flavour is impressive - and I think this is largely due to the way yeast in suspension affects flavour (pretty sure they do't filter the beer), though that's just a theory, not sure if it is due to the yeast, or bits of hop floating, and a 4 month old tin may start to taste awful - I've never kept one that long....

Another factor is the way larger volumes interact with the hops - sometimes you can't scale a recipe, it just won't work the same small scale and you're never sure how to modify to compensate.

My interpretation is that this is very complex. And probably the only way to get what we want is to experiment, but until then, enjoy the journey.

R


Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question, but I am just trying to get my head around what is and what isn't good about hazy/non-clear bear.
We talk about cold crashing, which is a common practice for home brewers so would these breweries do the same?
When you refer to them not pouring clear, what does that actually mean in the terms of the process?
Is it a suggestion that "cold crashing to clear" isn't always a good thing?


I guess they're precisely the questions everyone is asking, and due to the and numerous viewpoints held, there is no answer. I suppose that its just worth noting that anything you do will change the outcome. Filtering is known to reduce certain flavours, which makes sense - you're taking somethingout.

I made a very hoppy ale with oily hops and it tasted fuller with a little yeast from the bottle poured in, which was as much an experiment as anything. Im not saying its right or wrong, and i actually felt cold crashing would have improved it, as i think the yeast in the bottle was affecting the flavour badly after a few weeks, but the fact was, it made a difference.

There comes a point where, after certain given best practises are followed, it starts to very quickly become a case of which methods works best for what you're trying to achieve. I know cold crashing in the fermenter is a common practice as a couple of breweries i know of, I'm trying it on my next beeras I've just built a brew fridge.

There will come a point where you may realise making mistakes is a very educational activity, and may aid the creative side of what you're doing, but in any case there is never a single answer.

In response to your earlier post as well.... Go for it with 75g hops in a gallon. Sounds fun.!


A lot of breweries chill their beer for a few days prior to casking to drop the yeast out. My understanding of this is mostly that excess yeast in the cask can cause too much condition in a beer - heavy foaming - wastage when served - unlikely to purchase beer again. The UK is one of the few countries to have such a focus on hazy beer to the point of vilifying it. I've had CAMRA members send beer back for a slight haze stating it's "disgusting" - the very organization campaigning for live beer! (This was a minority however, most were actually supportive or complimentary of hazy beer.) What is actually disgusting is isinglass, which is used because of demand for clear beer. See the paradox? I like a clear beer as much as anyone, but it's not a deal breaker.

Sorry, random rant!
User avatar
robwalker
Brewer
 
Posts: 3418
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2014 18:55
Location: Longbridge, Birmingham

Re: Hop combinations

Postby 5hats » Wed Apr 20, 2016 18:09

It's when it crosses the line from 'this beer is unfined, so it might be a bit hazy' to 'this beer is badly kept, and is murky despite the brewer's best efforts' that makes me choose a different drink. Personally I think those fruit-juice Northeast US-style IPAs look revolting, but that's just, like, my opinion, man. They're meant to be like that and they're very popular.

Anyway, hop combinations: I like Chinook and Centennial.
User avatar
5hats
Brewer
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2015 14:20

Previous

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest