German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

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German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Tue Nov 03, 2015 22:46

Evening All

This just arrived in the post :

Image

Anyone have any experience of this ? Looking to brew my first Wheat Beer and would appreciate any ideas regarding a suitable first attempt.

Opened the cover and seen the 'D' word used quite a lot ( not that one........ decoction ) so looks like this is aimed at someone with far more experience than myself.

Thinking of setting up a very simple HERMS system as an experiment. (using my copper chiller coil in the HLT with the cheapest pump I can find). So, could maybe manage a multistep mash; maybe........

Anyway..... looks like a good read, feet up in front of the fire, lederhosen on, Franziskaner in hand....

Cheers

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby Bad 'Ed » Wed Nov 04, 2015 09:08

Can't you just add hot water to change the temp steps?

I love a good hefe, does that book have recipes in it too?

Never enough time....
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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Wed Nov 04, 2015 17:24

Hi Ed

Yes - it does have a few recipes; I had a good look through last night - in my humble opinion a good account of wheat beers, history, breweries, areas and, as above, a few recipes as well. A good read.

All, however, involving decoction but...... what a fascinating process; with anything like this I always reflect on the amount of trial and error that must of taken place to perfect the techniques involved.

I will have a go one day but in the meantime will stick to something simpler. Having trawled through the posts in this section there are a couple of single temp mash recipes ( should have looked first really before posting - note to self ) :hmm: )

Aleman's Erdinger
&
robwalker's Lawnmower

Seem really 'doable'

Pittsy ( God of Wheat :notworthy: ) has posted a step mash recipe - not sure of the maths but if you have to do several step increases in temp by adding hot water alone to the whole mash then I'm guessing that you would be starting with a stiff mash and could end up with a very thin one......... ie - the water additions would be too much and over dilute the total volume ( think I've read somewhere that Pittsy is a HERMS man )

It all seems to be about the grains and, if well modified, then a single temp infusion mash looks fine. Just fancied a go at HERMS for an experiment really after reading Barnsley Brewers' HERMS build post a few years ago.

When I take the plunge and descend into the World of Wheat I'll be sure to post results.

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby pittsy » Wed Nov 04, 2015 19:00

This is my bible book , excellent . It is good for all levels of brewing especially higher levels . You can do step mashing by starting with 10 litres and adding approx 2 litres per step , you can easily mash with 18/20 litres in final step then sparge as normal . The Isar weizen on page 105 is the standard recipe (yellow), you can add 300g of a crystal malt or something like Munich malt to give it a bit more colour (orange) . Don't be concerned about decoction mash as this is a pain in the ... and almost no difference , oh and use German or Belgian malts for stepping .
You want mainly 64c for the mash but finishing off at 71c for body and stepping low at the start will help with the banana and clove flavours from the yeast and also gives better head , some of the info is a little dated such as mashing at 50c , avoid if using pilsners malt mash at 55c instead as this will kill the head . It lists pale ale malt , as mentioned try pilsners malt or something like Dinglemanns pale ale malt ( maltmiller ) I also like the yeast wlp380 .
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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Thu Nov 05, 2015 23:33

Thanks Pittsy

Had a look at the Isar Weizen and seems a good place to start.

Will take your advice and order German wheat / pilsner grains / 380 yeast.

Regarding the 55 degree step am I right in thinking this should also be pretty short because of modern malts; maybe 20 mins ?

Cheers

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby robwalker » Thu Nov 05, 2015 23:51

I'll say mine is very basic, and pittsy is the man for wheat beers!
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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby pittsy » Fri Nov 06, 2015 09:19

For the rests you should avoid below 60c if English or American ( well modified malts ) but are fine with the German and Belgian ( less modified ) .
Resting in the 40's short or longer ( 15/40 mins ) for cloves and in the 50's for banana , 15 to 60 mins ( if you do decoction your main mash sits at 55c for a good while) . The other rests ( 60's to 70's ) is for the sugars and body , sugars in the lower rest ( 62/65c) and body in the upper rests (68/72c ) , longer rests give different results .
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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Sat Nov 07, 2015 20:13

Hi Pittsy

Hope you don't mind but to continue the 'brain picking' exercise.....

What do make of this for a 'classic' triple decoction ?


Image


Stumbled across this on a YouTube video of someone 'doing the business' - braukaiser.com

Pushing the 50 degree rest to 55 as suggested and, given the time / effort involved, would this make a good Hefe with all German Weyermann malts ? ( pilsner / light wheat )

Is the 'acid' rest necessary / beneficial ?

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby pittsy » Sat Nov 07, 2015 22:11

Hi Andy , I would do a short acid rest just so the grains hydrate so the next rests the grains are ready , Just a 15 min rest at all the temps is enough without decoction until you start resting at 62c and above . The triple decoction isn't worth it however a single one is worth a go . If doing decoction then I would do around 55c rest .
You really ought to do a single infusion rest with the same malts some other time to confirm how much multi step mashing improves this style , personally the difference a decoction makes is slight if any unless you are doing a dunkel .
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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Sun Nov 08, 2015 15:41

Thanks Pittsy

Given the advice, I'll try decoction another day......

Done a few calcs and worked out that my 32l mash tun should just about manage a 19 - 20 litre brew length using infusion to raise through the steps. Maybe something like :


2.93 kg Wheat Malt, German (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 70.0 %
1.26 kg Pilsner (2 Row) German (3.9 EBC) Grain 2 30.0 %
15.39 g Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] - Boil 80.0 min Hop 3 8.0 IBUs
7.24 g Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 4 3.3 IBUs
7.24 g Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 5 1.8 IBUs


Est Original Gravity: 1.051 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.6 %
Bitterness: 13.0 IBUs
Est Colour: 6.9 EBC


Infusion Mash

1 Add 10.00 l of water at 49.0 C 45.0 C 15 min
2 Add 2.58 l of water at 100.0 C 55.0 C 15 min
3 Add 3.07 l of water at 100.0 C 63.0 C 30 min
4 Add 3.34 l of water at 100.0 C 69.0 C 45 min
5 Add 4.94 l of water at 100.0 C 75.0 C 10 min




Obviously, the 100.00 C water additions are 'perfect world' figures and I'm bound to have heat losses. The figures above would give me maybe 5 litres spare in the mash tun to take up the slack and compensate if needs be.

Do you foresee any issue with ending up with such a thin mash ? Would end up over 6 to 1 liquor to grain ratio ?

Sound like a plan ?

Cheers

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby pittsy » Sun Nov 08, 2015 18:00

That will work fine , the main mash has 5 litres less so well within normal german ratio .Hope you have a good brew day , don't forget the pictures .
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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Sun Nov 08, 2015 23:20

Pittsy

This is just a quick thank you for all the help and advice. :hat:

I'm always impressed with the time and trouble people are willing to take on here to help those less experienced; even if we do ask daft questions some of the time ! Glad I found the 'new' site a few months ago having got back into brewing.

Thanks again - will definitely do a photo brew day when I have a go at this and........... I expect a bottle of the finished product may well wing its way to you in the post for 'scientific analysis' :D

Cheers

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby pittsy » Mon Nov 09, 2015 08:20

You're more than welcome , glad I can be useful :D
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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Thu Nov 12, 2015 23:18

Hi Pittsy

Ingredients ordered from Rob the Malt Miller; should be here tomorrow. Brew day scheduled for Sunday.

Also ordered some Weyermann Carahell; not sure if I'll use it in this 1st attempt though - may just stick to wheat and pilsner.

Just need to decide on fermentation temp now ( I ordered WLP300 ). I like banana so may pitch a bit lower then raise to 19/20 degrees.

Water wise - going to shoot for 100ppm Calcium and, as I've seen you recommend before, keep the Sulphate / Chloride balanced.

My alkalinity is less than 30 CaCO3 ( new Salifert test kit is great ) so hopefully all systems go.

Think it will be an early start on Sunday; mash is going to take a wee bit longer than usual....

Thanks again

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby pittsy » Fri Nov 13, 2015 16:23

You're welcome Andy , myself I would use around 300g of carahell for a 23 litre brew ( 30% pilsner then the rest wheat ) I wouldn't worry about starting ferment low as this is a myth that was called the rule of thumb where you would ferment at say 18c and would start of at 12c ( always adding up to 30 ) but this was to do with no temp control and was used so the yeast didn't raise the wort temp too high and doesn't make any difference to the banana effects . This will be from mashing longer at 55c and fermenting slightly warmer at 20c but insuring not to go above ( 22c max , 24c will result in off flavours ) . Hope it all goes well on Sunday , you may need 8 hrs but with practice you can reduce this to around 6 hrs . :thumb:
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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby jkp » Fri Nov 13, 2015 17:04

This has been a nice thread to follow. I love a good German wheat beer and I've learnt a lot from reading this, so thanks to you both. I may just get that book too.

I've also read a little of the Kaiser`s website and seen a few of his youtube videos which are very good. He makes it look so easy. I'm still thinking about trying decoction even just for the hell of it!

I await the brewday post for this one. Interestingly I entered a Hefe into a not very serious local comp and the judges suggested adding Carahell to enhance the malty body, exactly as Pittsy said. Good luck with your brew!

Edit: Btw, have you thought about BIAB? It does make step mashing very easy at very little cost and effort compared to herms.

Last edited by jkp on Fri Nov 13, 2015 17:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Fri Nov 13, 2015 17:07

Hi Pittsy

Delivery just arrived ( spot on again from Rob the Malt Miller - can't fault it )

Never seen Wheat Malt before - I can see what people mean now about the lack of husk.


Image


Guessing this just breaks down into a gloopy mess; hence the stuck mashes folk talk about ( I also bought some oat husks as insurance )

Roll-on Sunday :thumb:

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Fri Nov 13, 2015 17:16

Hi JKP

I too will have a go at decoction one day; just to take a shot at it.

This, however, will be a 'simple' infusion step mash;

ie - add a certain amount of boiling liquor to the mash to raise to the next step temperature - rest - repeat to reach next temperature - rest - repeat - etc.

Will definitely post a pictorial brewday on Sunday :thumb:

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby jkp » Fri Nov 13, 2015 17:30

Hi Andy

There is something about the history of decoction that makes me want to give it a go, at least once anyway. Just imagining those brewers of yesteryear working it all out amazes me. They knew little of the science yet still figured it out, incredible devotion to beer!

As long as you have plenty of space in your mash tun you'll be fine. I`ve found in the past that it takes more space than the naive 100c calculation would assume. But if you do get stuck(I mean run out of space rather than a stuck mash!) remember that you can draw off a little mash and boil it up a la decoction.

Good luck!

Last edited by jkp on Sat Nov 14, 2015 13:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby pittsy » Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:15

You can also drain some of the main liquor off and heat that up instead of adding more water if the overall levels are getting too high btw .
As for stuck mashes if this happens you can cut through the grains with a knife like Zoro :D and if needed blow up the pipe when draining . I have false bottoms with filters and such so I rarely have them .
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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Sat Nov 14, 2015 19:28

Hi Pittsy

Usual type of false bottom in my set up; 32 litre thermopot with SS perforated sheet standing about 1/3 inch off the bottom.


Image


Perfectly fine with barley but never yet christened with wheat ! I will use the Oat Husks as insurance but do our German friends have any other contraptions to avoid the dreaded 'stuck mash' ? ( I will dig out the Zorro mask just in case..... )

New Whitelabs packaging for Hefeweizen 300


Image


Going to make a small starter tonight just to get it going. As I'm only aiming for 19 litres and this yeast is 'brand new' hoping I won't have any issues. I've also read that Hefeweizen yeast can benefit from being pitched at a slightly lesser rate than normal; works a bit harder, produces nice flavours ?


Anyway - all set for the morning - one of the first times I've wanted to get out of bed early on a Sunday for a long time.......


A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Sat Nov 14, 2015 22:43

Evening All

To keep the continuity of this thread, recipe advice through to actual brew day, I'll post an account of my attempt here as well.

First up; small yeast starter just to stimulate their appetite -


Image


The yeast aroma was divine when I sniped off the top of the packet; just like a really good bottle of Hefe. I wanted to drink it :D

More pics tomorrow as the day progresses.

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:58

Morning All :hat:

Well; here we go - its Hefeweizen day !

This is the final recipe version I've decided to go with :


2.90 kg Weyermann Wheat Malt - Light (4.0 EBC) Grain 1 65.0 %
1.34 kg Weyermann Pilsner (2 Row) (3.0 EBC) Grain 2 30.0 %
0.22 kg Weyermann Carahell (25.0 EBC) Grain 3 5.0 %
17.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.60 %] - Boil 80.0 min Hop 4 8.0 IBUs
8.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.60 %] - Boil 45.0 min Hop 5 3.3 IBUs
8.00 g Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [3.60 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 6 1.8 IBUs



In addition to the above I'm going to add 500 grams of Oat Husk to the mash.

Decided to go for the Carahell as I do like a Hefe with a certain body and that 'orangey' colour. All experimental today so we shall see.

And.... the infusion mash schedule :


45.0 C 15 min ( for clove )
55.0 C 30 min ( for banana )
63.0 C 30 min ( for sugar )
70.0 C 45 min ( for body )
75.0 C 10 min (for ??? )



Time to get cooking.......

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:16

Ok.......


Image


I know it looks like water but it's different.....

Having recently acquired a Salifert alkalinity test kit I'm now able to have a 'proper' go at water treatment. I have very soft water here in north Manchester ( piped in from the Lake District ) so low alkalinity. 16.5 CaCO3 yesterday when I filled the HLT.

So, as a first I've added all the salts to the HLT. Took a while to dissolve..... I've been using a hand blender since yesterday afternoon in 6 litres of water. A good way to check the salts are in solution as it creates a really fierce whirlpool and any undissolved salts collect in centre of the pot I used. Maybe took four 5 min blends and an overnight stand before everything was dissolved.

Not sure if I'll bother again.....

A

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Re: German Wheat Beer - Eric Warner

Postby AndyBWood » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:42

Grains.....

Wheat / Pilsner / Carahell / Husks


Image

I decided to cut down the husks to 333 grams; everything was suddenly looking 'bulky' and I'm not absolutely sure the tun is going to able to cope with this by pure infusion.

Carahell smells gorgeous :D

A

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