Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

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Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Wed Nov 16, 2016 16:35

As I am still very much learning about how ingredients go together, I just wondered if you guys could cast an eye over the recipe below please? I've gone for hops I like (aside from Rakau, it's new to me but I'm hearing good things) but whether or not they go together or if my quantities are right is another thing altogether!

First off, category wise, it's not something I'm getting too hung up about, but does this one reflect more of an APA, IPA or American Amber for example? Although IPAs tend to be my go to style at the moment, I'd like to branch out and learn about new styles (to me).

Seondly, I'd go with US05 with this most likely but again, as above, it'd be nice to try something different to what I've made up to now.

I've set my efficiency to 63% this time around as that is what it seems my last few have been so hopefully I'll be a bit closer to my targets.
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:14

Any thoughts guys? Wanna get some ingredients ordered before 12 so I can crack on tomorrow/sat!

Is my bittering charge too low?
Should i push out my mid hopping and just launch it all in at flame out, or hit a bigger dry hop?

This is all after reading up about hop bursting yesterday you see. My interpretation of it could be way out!
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby Rolfster » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:22

Looks good to me. I would up the bittering a bit, and maybe reduce the Munich (although you've got a good amount of hops??? Thinking out loud here so maybe not.... ) but that just my personal taste!
If you get a 100g bag of each hop you've got a bit to play with, but it looks good and hoppy!
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby tommidolcetto » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:23

I would up the bittering to nearer 40, it still won't be heavy but will give it a bit more bite.
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:26

Thanks guys.
Someone from my homebrew club commented on dropping the 10 min addition altogether and just loading up on the flameout/steep addition.
Is that "normal" to have nothing but a bittering charge and then only flameout additions?
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby tommidolcetto » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:29

I would stick with the 2 or 3 late additions to try and get a variety of flavours and aromas.
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby Rolfster » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:34

xCamel xSlayer wrote:Thanks guys.
Someone from my homebrew club commented on dropping the 10 min addition altogether and just loading up on the flameout/steep addition.
Is that "normal" to have nothing but a bittering charge and then only flameout additions?


Your heading into hop burst....

tommidolcetto wrote:I would stick with the 2 or 3 late additions to try and get a variety of flavours and aromas.


I agree with this I think.
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:42

OK cool thanks guys.
I'll up the IBU slightly and get em ordered.
Would you suggest I just up the bittering charge to gain the extra IBU, or do I need to increase the late hops instead?
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby robwalker » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:10

No harm in ever increasing late hops with these kinds of beers but a bittering charge will work fine as you have lots of hops in there anyway.

You are quite underbittered - a good rule of thumb for balanced beers is to match OG with IBU and take 10 IBUs off.
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:18

I think I need to increase my steep time, as I only put 10 mins in there whereas I have actually been standing for 20-30 mins prior to now.
Reading up on these NEIPA styles, it talks all the time about using next to no bittering charge but then loads at the end.
Initially I thought this would mean the IBU count would be very low, but I didn't take in to account the amount created by the late hops and the steeping.
I'll play around with it a little, and get it closer to the 50 mark.

What would your thoughts be on adding some wheat for mouthfeel/head retention? Is this a common tactic, or have I got it completely wrong altogether?
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby robwalker » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:22

Head retention yes, mouth feel not really. Works a charm though, see what the result is, I know some report less clear beer with wheat, some report more clear. I like carapils personally as it's barley based and doesn't really imbalance the recipe.
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:26

I think this style from what I can gather, and certainly from the photos I have seen of them, are quite naturally hazy anyway.
What sort of percentage would you need to add, is there a "rule of thumb" for this as well?
I'm not a massive fan of wheat beers, so I wouldn't want it to bring in any odd tastes.
Likewise though, if carapils is recommended, the same question applies :)
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby Rolfster » Thu Nov 17, 2016 13:23

Less than 5%.
Oats can help as well. They add head and mouth feel. They do require a cereal mash.

I think stick with the wheat. It'd ok if this style is a bit thinner.
The more I think about it the more I'm liking the hop combo of this beer!
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 13:44

I got talking to two guys from the States, one of which brews this style often and he said he uses nearly 3lbs of flaked oats in his... which sounded absolutely berserk to me, that's like 1.3kg or so..!!

In the end, as I was pushed for time to get it ordered, I opted for 5kg EPMO, 230g caramalt and 300g of flaked oats (5% roughly).
I've never used oats, and I have never researched using oats, so what exactly do I need to do with them? Do they just go in with the others and mash for the same amount of time?

As for the hops, I am in love with Simcoe and Vic Secret. Rakau is one I have only heard great things about, so I just thought sod it and threw it in to try. I've got 100g bags of each, so I can either keep the left overs for a future brew, play with the schedule some more or go double on the dry hop!
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 14:05

Newly revised version below.
Oats have been added in place of Munich at 5% of the Bill.

My IBU are now higher as well. In the right ball park?

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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby Rolfster » Thu Nov 17, 2016 14:19

Looking good.
With the oats you want to take your oats and 10% of their weight in Maris otter and a bit of water in a pan heat. Heat the water gently while stiring to 40 degrees (I think) once up to temp put a lid on leave for 30 minutes.
Then get your mash on.
Then heat the oats to the same temp as you mash and add them to your tun.
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Thu Nov 17, 2016 14:48

Thanks, I'll have a read up about oat usage. What's the theory behind this?

Also, any real concerns about the EBC rating?
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby HTH1975 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 14:55

When I've used oats I've just used 'instant' oats or any oats you can microwave. Apparently they don't need a cereal mash. I've certainly got the oat mouthfeel and that scummy head when doing this, so I assume it's worked fine.

As for wheat, for head retention I normally use 1% of the grist. For bitters and stouts, about 4-5%.

Carapils is nice for lighter beers if you want a bit of body without changing your malt flavour profile.

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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby Rolfster » Thu Nov 17, 2016 19:03

xCamel xSlayer wrote:Thanks, I'll have a read up about oat usage. What's the theory behind this?

Also, any real concerns about the EBC rating?


The enzymes in the grain breaks down some long molecules in the oats, (glucan I think) but they need lower temperatures than the mash
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby robwalker » Thu Nov 17, 2016 20:10

Flaked/rolled/instant all ready to use. That covers most supermarket varieties.
Unmodified (the kind that take 8-10 mins to cook on the hob) need a glucan rest to break them down.
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby Rolfster » Thu Nov 17, 2016 22:01

robwalker wrote:Flaked/rolled/instant all ready to use. That covers most supermarket varieties.
Unmodified (the kind that take 8-10 mins to cook on the hob) need a glucan rest to break them down.


Don't the unmodified ones need gelatizing... or some such thing. Like boiling.
I think the rolled ones still need a glucan rest.
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby rlemkin » Thu Nov 17, 2016 23:38

Flaked/rolled are good to go.
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby xCamel xSlayer » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:11

She came early enough so we're a GO!

Are we in agreement then that my oats are good to go?
Not much I can do if not as they've been blended with the caramalt!

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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby tommidolcetto » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:14

According to the bag's label you've got malted oats so all good to go.
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Re: Vic secret, Simcoe & Rakau

Postby rlemkin » Sat Nov 19, 2016 10:57

Have fun, should be good. All those hops are great.
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