Chill haze problem!

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Chill haze problem!

Postby Andyhull » Wed Jan 07, 2015 15:09

Hi all,

I have brewed a Citra SMaSH and have had a few now (only 4 left) and they are by far the best i have ever brewed.
I brerwed the Citra SMaSH to see if it would be any good as a refreshing summer beer and thankfully i was right.
What i have noticed though is that if i serve them at room temprature they are crystal clear but from the fridge they are cloudy.
Now as a summer brew i would like to serve them from the fridge but would still like them to be clear, is there anything i can do get round this on my next brew?

Don't get me wrong they taste exactly the same (very nice in deed) so there's no issue with that so i supose it's just down to how it looks and as i will be serving this to sceptical friends i would like it to look as good as it tastes.

Thanks in advance,

Andy
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby supersteve » Wed Jan 07, 2015 15:11

From what I'm aware you need to chill it as fast as bleedin' possible. Or serve it at 10 degrees, which it should be to get maximum flavour.
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Andyhull » Wed Jan 07, 2015 15:15

I used the over night chill in a cube so this could be my issue.
I may have to invest in a chilling coil then if thats the case!
Thanks Steve.

Andy
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby robwalker » Wed Jan 07, 2015 15:23

I get the same thing with no chilling unfortunately. It seems a lot less apparent with isinglass added for fining. I'm sure it's down to chilling method too.

The good news? It'll go away in 3 months or so.
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby supersteve » Wed Jan 07, 2015 15:28

robwalker wrote:The good news? It'll go away in 3 months or so.


As will the best part of the hop profile :lol: :x :cry:
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Andyhull » Wed Jan 07, 2015 15:32

robwalker wrote:The good news? It'll go away in 3 months or so.


Ahh, so does that mean if i leave them for 3 months i won't get the chill haze at all no matter how i cool after the boil?
If this is the case that won't be a problem as i will be brewing next week either on Tuesday or Wednesday (days off work) so the brew will have plenty of time before summer!

Hopefully doing 2 brews one on Tuesday and 1 on Wednesday. :pray:

Andy
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Rolfster » Wed Jan 07, 2015 15:34

Clarity ferm? Not used it but been looking into it for the gluten free implications.
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby mark1964 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 15:36

Try poly clar it helps even if the batch is chilled

ITS TIME 4 ANOTHER BEER
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby robwalker » Wed Jan 07, 2015 15:44

Andyhull wrote:
robwalker wrote:The good news? It'll go away in 3 months or so.


Ahh, so does that mean if i leave them for 3 months i won't get the chill haze at all no matter how i cool after the boil?
If this is the case that won't be a problem as i will be brewing next week either on Tuesday or Wednesday (days off work) so the brew will have plenty of time before summer!

Hopefully doing 2 brews one on Tuesday and 1 on Wednesday. :pray:

Andy


Ah, then you MIGHT be okay. I brewed a lager that sucked. Hazy as hell and left for 3 months in the fridge, then it cleared up perfectly while still cool, so yeah with good conditioning you might be okay! I don't know if it'll be the same if you keep them warm for their ageing time.
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Andyhull » Wed Jan 07, 2015 15:45

Hi Mark hows you?

I want to keep clear (excuse the pun) of any additives as i can, so just hops grain yeast and irish moss.
I may in the future as i get better at brewing and trying to create the holy grail of brews, have to add a few bits and bobs to condition the water/liquer but i don't want to start to add geletins (etc).
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Andyhull » Wed Jan 07, 2015 15:50

robwalker wrote:Ah, then you MIGHT be okay. I brewed a lager that sucked. Hazy as hell and left for 3 months in the fridge, then it cleared up perfectly while still cool, so yeah with good conditioning you might be okay! I don't know if it'll be the same if you keep them warm for their ageing time.


I can either condition them in the airing cupboard, in a fridge or in the shed (or in a fridge in a shed :lol: ) so which would you guys recomend?
This is music to my ears by the way guys.

Thanks

Andy
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby kev » Wed Jan 07, 2015 16:04

It's all down to the coagulation and subsequent removal of proteins in the wort. This happens during a proper hot and cold break.

The irish moss & rapid chilling aids coagulation of these proteins. Once you have done this you need to extract them from the wort effectively either via a mesh filter and a hop bed or racking off via a conical dump or syphon.

If you don't use additives.....or......don't have an adequate hot/cold break as well as appropriate filtration (or conical to dump from) then it'll be hard getting crystal clear beer whilst chilled. It can be done but I wouldn't be surprised (or bothered to be honest) about slightly hazy beer.

K
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Aleman » Wed Jan 07, 2015 16:19

Chill haze is caused when the polyphenols, from hops, and tannins/prototannoids, from grain and hops, react with the low molecular weight protein fragments left after the boil to form an unstable colloid, when the temperature drops below a certain point the colloids drop out of solution as haze particles. Unfortunately they are not heavy enough to drop out under gravity, and also when the temperature rises they do not necessarily go back into solution.

So what can you do about it?

Try and avoid extracting tannins from the mash, Keep the pH of the sparge liquor below 6.0 and the temperature of the sparge liquor below 78C especially towards the end of the sparge. Batch Spargers and BIAB Brewers have an advantage here ;) Avoid excessively long mashes, overnight mashes in particular can lead to an excessive tannin extraction and a dry astringent taste to the beer.

Try and get a very good hot break, ensure you boil for long enough and hard enough, use a good copper fining like protofloc, but be careful not to overdose 1-4g per hectalitre. You may also consider adding 60ppm calcium to the boil to unsure that you have sufficient calcium present to aid the hot break, the more protein you remove the less hangs around to form a colloid.

If you're using excessive amounts of hops in the boil, ie big hoppy beers or hop bursting, then you are going to have to accept that you are going to have a polyphenol haze, however there are things that you can do to minimise this, and the most effective are the use of auxiliary 'copper' finings. Murphys have a great one (Which I'm hoping BeerBloke will remind me of the name :oops:) I personally use Polyclar 730P, both in the boil and in the FV, which is a mix of PVPP and Silica Gel, the PVPP reacts with tannoids and the silica gel reacts with the polyphenols. Remove those and then you are removing the potential for haze formation. Another magic bullet is 'ClarityFerm' from Whitelabs, this is a specific protease that you add to the FV and it chews up a specific protein fragment again increasing the beers stability, an additional gain is that it renders the beer gluten free as that specific protein fragment is what cause the allergic reaction in coeliacs. A silica based aux fining in the FV followed by Isinglass will also drag out excess tannins and polyphenols.

Remember that it's better not to extract the stuff in the first place rather than try and remove it later on in the process, so paying close attention to mash and sparge pH and temperatures will assist greatly in producing a stable beer.

please note:The use of punctuation, bold, underlining, italics, and different sized type, follows the convention used in writing, for many years, to place emphasis on the point being made, and to highlight the importance of that point in the opinion of the author. It is not the intention of the author to shout, if that was the case the author would adopt the, much more recent, convention of using all capital letters.
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Andyhull » Wed Jan 07, 2015 16:20

I have a new hop stopper now as my old one didn't do the job and allot of break material came through.

New one

Hop Stopper 1.jpg
Hop Stopper 1.jpg (125.9 KiB) Viewed 2445 times


My other one was a mesh frying pan anti spatter guard but it didn't sit flat on the bottom so allowing the break material through.
Will a chilling coil help with this problem or not?

Andy
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Andyhull » Wed Jan 07, 2015 16:26

Thanks Aleman,

I will look into getting a PH tester for my water and i do batch sparge and mash for 90mins so no real issue with overtemp and tannins on the Mash/Sparge.
It was only my first AG brew so wanted to make sure it wasn't something i was doing wrong from the get go.
Will it clear by it's self in a few months then or not?

Andy
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Aleman » Wed Jan 07, 2015 16:34

Andyhull wrote:
robwalker wrote:The good news? It'll go away in 3 months or so.

Ahh, so does that mean if i leave them for 3 months i won't get the chill haze at all no matter how i cool after the boil?

If you have a poor cold break you will leave an excess of low molecular weight proteins behind, then once you cool you will get the chill haze. It may clear up after an extended period of aging, but at the same time beer stability decreases (generally) with time so additional hazes may well form.

Good brewing technique, paying attention to the important variables at each and every stage will produce good beer that should not need additives. However you water can have a significant impact on your beer and beer stability, so what happens for one brewer in one area of the country may not be successful for you.

please note:The use of punctuation, bold, underlining, italics, and different sized type, follows the convention used in writing, for many years, to place emphasis on the point being made, and to highlight the importance of that point in the opinion of the author. It is not the intention of the author to shout, if that was the case the author would adopt the, much more recent, convention of using all capital letters.
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Aleman » Wed Jan 07, 2015 16:39

Andyhull wrote:I will look into getting a PH tester for my water

It's pointless for water, but for checking mash pH and boil pH then a good pH meter (I recommended a couple in another thread)) is a sensible investment.

Andyhull wrote:It was only my first AG brew so wanted to make sure it wasn't something i was doing wrong from the get go.

From what you've said I would say your issue is potentially down to a poor hot break and a more or less non existent cold break, improve these and you should see the haze reduce significantly.

Andyhull wrote:Will it clear by it's self in a few months then or not?

Possibly, possibly not it depends on how much of the haze forming compounds you have present.

please note:The use of punctuation, bold, underlining, italics, and different sized type, follows the convention used in writing, for many years, to place emphasis on the point being made, and to highlight the importance of that point in the opinion of the author. It is not the intention of the author to shout, if that was the case the author would adopt the, much more recent, convention of using all capital letters.
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby JimmyB » Wed Jan 07, 2015 16:41

A friend of mine brewed a few batches with CRISP CLEAR CHOICE ALE MALT from the Malt Miller

http://themaltmiller.co.uk/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=508

Came out well and had no chill haze, which he'd had on a previous batch of the same brew. He uses the BIAB method.
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby robwalker » Wed Jan 07, 2015 16:41

Interesting. I'd assumed this was a sort of global thing because I've heard lots of people adopt a time heals all attitude to chill haze. Simply put for me, I don't want to wait that long anyway, so I usually accept the cloudiness.

Interesting to note is that when I brew a 2 gallon extract beer, it usually comes up clear in no time at all. I've no doubt this is due to hitting the boil hard in a stockpot, and faster cooling due to reduced volume.

Aleman, would it be right to say that less hops might equal less chill haze? That's pretty appealing to me and I'd love to try it out with a Saison if so.
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Andyhull » Wed Jan 07, 2015 16:46

Thanks again Aleman,

I think i got a good hot break if thats what this is?
Boil.jpg
Boil.jpg (151.41 KiB) Viewed 2426 times

As for cold break i used a cube outside and the temp was about 8c so not sure there!

I may have to see about getting an imersion coil chiller built!

Thanks for all the advice guys, i'll just have to see how it turns out next time and if the next one gets it i'll invest in the imersion chiller.

Andy
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby kev » Wed Jan 07, 2015 16:53

No that's not it.

A proper hot break will result in stuff like this floating in your boiling wort.

K

Image

Image
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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby vacant » Wed Jan 07, 2015 17:38

I came across this thread while drinking a crystal-clear chilled "no-chill", brewed 12 Sep

When I fancy a couple of glasses (most days) I pick a 2 litre PET bottle from under the stairs, pour it carefully off the yeast, pour half back in the rinsed bottle and pop it in the fridge for the next day.

So I'd trust robwalker's three month clarity statement. I don't know how much chill haze I get in my younger beers as I don't take much notice :thumb:

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Re: Chill haze problem!

Postby Andyhull » Wed Jan 07, 2015 18:05

Thanks Kev,

I did get that but a lot of that came through the boilers original filter into the cube then the Fv.
I'll se if Robs 3 months ish rule applies and then look to make other alterations as I go if it doesn't resolve it's self.

Many thanks for all the advice guys.

Andy
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