roscoe wrote:So for a soft west coast scottish water with next to no alkalinity if trying to brew a lager using a ratio of 50:50 pilsner malt, extra pale ale malt, <10% munich and <5% caragold, my mash comes to just what John Palmer predicts ~5.8, if I sparge using the same very soft water it increases to 6, the hot break is good, but the final beer pH is too high.
Now I had considered an acid rest, but don't want to use expensive acidulated malt that is fairly hard to source, how should I do the acid adjust ?
> add latic acid or make effort to add 3% acid malt to bring to 5.5
using the acid rest as a good place/step to make the adjustment rather
> add phosphoric acid to strike and sparge water
to some amount, perhaps based on experience of above
I have tried the salifert test, all is vvlow and our kettles never fur up and last forever.
Just trying to keep things simple whilst brewing the very occasional lager for hobby/sport.
Ales seem to work fine, although working to better understand the water treatment subject a bit more.
roscoe wrote:Update.... so it seems like a red-herring for me !
The hanna pH meter was way out, so pleased I didn't attempt further mash corrections.
Whilst I have no idea of mash pH, I do know my water alkalinity is very low, like 6 mg/L as CaCO3roscoe wrote:So for a soft west coast scottish water with next to no alkalinity if trying to brew a lager using a ratio of 50:50 pilsner malt, extra pale ale malt, <10% munich and <5% caragold, my mash comes to just what John Palmer predicts ~5.8, if I sparge using the same very soft water it increases to 6, the hot break is good, but the final beer pH is too high.
Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Aleman wrote:roscoe wrote:Update.... so it seems like a red-herring for me !
The hanna pH meter was way out, so pleased I didn't attempt further mash corrections.
Whilst I have no idea of mash pH, I do know my water alkalinity is very low, like 6 mg/L as CaCO3roscoe wrote:So for a soft west coast scottish water with next to no alkalinity if trying to brew a lager using a ratio of 50:50 pilsner malt, extra pale ale malt, <10% munich and <5% caragold, my mash comes to just what John Palmer predicts ~5.8, if I sparge using the same very soft water it increases to 6, the hot break is good, but the final beer pH is too high.
You've found what a few of us with low alkalinity water have, even using an all lager malt grist the mash pH is stubbornly high!Yes the theory tells us that with a low alkalinity water and pale malts the mash pH should be fine.
. . whereas in reality it ends up too high . . . even messing about with acids (let alone acidulated malt - malt sprayed with lactic acid
) doesn't do a lot to shift the pH . . . seems counter intuitive doesn't it
The answer here . . .Shhhhhh . . . Calcium
Seriously with water with as low levels of minerals in it as yours you will need to suppliment the calcium levels. For your pale beers I would suggest calcium chloride (Steer clear of anything with sulphate in it - a pilsner with high sulphate will be harshly bitter). 1g of Calcium chloride (as the dihydrate) in 1L will give 273mg/l of calcium and 490mg/l of chloride . . . ideally you want to be looking at a calcium level of 50-100mg/l in your mash liquor.
A pH of 6 for the sparge liquor is not a problem, and indeed 'could' be considered ideal (certainly no higher).
Personally I prefer to use the flavour 'neutral' acids like hydrochloric (for pilsners) and sulphuric (for ales etc) lactic has too much of a flavour presence IMHO, and phosphate just causes calcium to precipitate making it difficult to clean up things like boiler and hlt elements.
WallyBrew wrote:This is the 10N not 12N stuff so it "smokes" less on opening.
Put 2 litres of water in 5L container, add the 33% hydrochloric, cap, shake and dilute to 5L. This is now approx 2N and you can determine its actual strength.
If it is 2N then 1mL will neutralise 100mg of calcium carbonate and add 71mg of chloride.
The prepared 5 litres of acid is equivalent to 2.73 litres of CRS but without adding the sulphate
A standard 5L plastic jerry-can would do but preferably the type without the wadded insert. This could be used for both storage and mixing and can usually be obtained with distilled water in it.
If you have a 2L flask, use that only put about 750mL water in first.
Some heat is generated during the mixing but nowhere near the amount that is given off with sulphuric and water. It might reach about 35C.
Gloves (marigold will be fine) , old clothes, EYE PROTECTION, are all advised. Please do not wear your brewing footwear as shown in some of your photographsk
Carry out the procedure outside in the fresh air.
The worst part is the HCl gas that is freely available with acids of this strength so a mask (multi-layer type) or respirator are advisable. The gas will not really harm you unless you draw in swathes of it but it may irritate the nasal passage. Your own reactions will stop you anyway. Alternatively do what I do, take a deep breath and mix the water and acid, swirl and retire to a distance while the fumes disappear.
Do not be frightened of this acid it will do less damage than caustic, sulphuric or hydrofluoric acid on contact with skin, it is just the vapour that is irritating.
You should be able to mix all the acid and water within 20 seconds or so.
You could also set up a fan blowing the air away from you.
Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Aleman wrote:I get mine from a convenient source (She is a of chemistry)
Sulphuric is available from Murphys . . . However it is not 25% W/W as stated on the label but 25% v/v . . .approx 4.69M and nearly twice as strong as Murphys state. It can also be had from the bay of E
Hydrochloric Acid can be had from ebay The 33% is slightly easier to handle than the 36% which is 'fuming' strength
WARNING these acids are extremely concentrated and will cause severe chemical burns if mishandled. THEY MUST BE DILUTED PRIOR TO USE
Raptor wrote:In terms of dilution of sulphuric acid for alkalinity reduction, you mean the dilution is necessary via the mash water?
Raptor wrote:Interesting info on the Murphys sulphuric acid %. I was going to test the alkalinity reduction strength using 5 litres of my tap water based on the 25% stated strength and Brunwater calcs.
Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
Aleman wrote:Take a look on JBK about the issues with Murphy's . . Then ask if you can trust thier recommendations. I did some work for a brewery in the summer that were following murphy's guidance and were wondering why the pH of the mash liquor was falling to 3. . . Turns out that they should have been using 550ml of ams not the 1200 recommended! !! Then you have to decide if what a brewer in your region is doing is appropriate for your water . . .They could well have a different supply to you.
rlemkin wrote:Aleman wrote:Take a look on JBK about the issues with Murphy's . . Then ask if you can trust thier recommendations. I did some work for a brewery in the summer that were following murphy's guidance and were wondering why the pH of the mash liquor was falling to 3. . . Turns out that they should have been using 550ml of ams not the 1200 recommended! !! Then you have to decide if what a brewer in your region is doing is appropriate for your water . . .They could well have a different supply to you.
I know this is an old post, but ^^^^^ this.
I've recently started working at a brewery and found their suggestions to be pretty atrocious. Not quite as bad as mention above, but enough to cause issues.
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