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My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 14:37
by Gethin79
Excellent service from Wallybrew, just got my water sample results. All I need now is to know how to deal with it. So here goes:

Sodium as Na, mg/l 29.3
Potassium as K, mg/l 3.9
Magnesium as Mg, mg/l. 4.2
Calcium as Ca, mg/l 92.4
Chloride as Cl, mg/l. 35.2
Nitrate as NO3, mg/l 31.4
Phosphate as PO4, mg/l 1.8
Sulphate as SO4, mg/l 56.3
Total alkalinity as CaCO3, mg/l 182
PH 7.16
Total residual chlorine as Cl2, mg/l 0.04

So, some advice on how to go about treating this would be great!

I mainly like to brew pale ales, if that's any help? :thumb:

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 15:55
by krazypara3165
Great stuff! Do you know how it compares to the statistics that your water company says it should be?

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 16:32
by mark1964
the alkalinity can change daily you need a salifert kit if you don't have one already. Those results are not too far off what ours is

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 16:39
by Gethin79
krazypara3165 wrote:Great stuff! Do you know how it compares to the statistics that your water company says it should be?


The only info I can get so far from the water company is a long list of nothing like what we need...I'll try and get more to compare if I can.
mark1964 wrote:the alkalinity can change daily you need a salifert kit if you don't have one already. Those results are not too far off what ours is


I have one now, which has proven to be accurate...it gave the same reading as the analysis reading...which is promising! :thumb:

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 16:42
by mark1964
ours varies from week to week just make sure you check on a brewday

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 16:46
by Gethin79
Will do mate. I've still got your number, so when I brew, if you don't mind, I'll probably give you a bell to make sure I'm doing everything right.

Just got to get hold of the necessary acids etc now... :hmm:

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 16:47
by Aleman
For pale ales reduce the alkalinity to 30 using sulphuric acid and you should be good to go.

If you want to be pedantic you could try adding calcium chloride after acid treatment to give you around a 2 to 1 sulphate to chloride ratio.

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 16:50
by mark1964
Gethin79 wrote:Will do mate. I've still got your number, so when I brew, if you don't mind, I'll probably give you a bell to make sure I'm doing everything right.

Just got to get hold of the necessary acids etc now... :hmm:

No worries.

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 18:01
by Gethin79
Aleman wrote:For pale ales reduce the alkalinity to 30 using sulphuric acid and you should be good to go.

If you want to be pedantic you could try adding calcium chloride after acid treatment to give you around a 2 to 1 sulphate to chloride ratio.

Cheers for that.

I take it I can figure out how much acids etc etc to add to give me specific ratios by using a calculator like Brun Water? Never used it before, so will have to have a look at it to figure it out.

...now just got to source the correct grade sulphuric acid and some calcium chloride (because I feel like being pedantic!! :whistle: )

Any ideas on which sulphuric acid to buy? Still confused about this.

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 19:28
by Gethin79
Just found this:

https://apcpure.com/product/sulphuric_acid_25

Is 25% ok to use...I'd imagine it's safer to handle, but I'd need more of it to bring the alkalinity down? And would mean I don't have to dilute it myself.

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 19:41
by Aleman
Unless you can handle the conc sulphuric and have the requisite PPE then go for the 25%. It's still more concentrated than you would need . . I would probably weigh out 100g of the acid and add it gradually to 400g of deionised water . . Swirling and cooling the mixture between additions.

Yes you will need to use more of the dilute acid to neutralise the alkalinity but that makes it easier to measure accurately.

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 19:50
by Gethin79
Thanks. I'll do that.

Now, maths not being my strong point...for entering the percentage strength of the solution to Bru'n Water, would doing as you say reduce it to approximately a 6% solution?

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 21:21
by wallybrew
There is a problem with using % with acids.

In their concentrated form they are given as g/100g viz per cent by weight.

In terms of molarity/normality:

conc sulphuric is 18.6 molar 37.2 normal

Conc HCl comes in two strengths circa 35 to 37% and 32 to 34%
the first is approx 12 molar, 12 normal
the second is approx 10 molar, 10 normal.

I'll skip phosphoric, lactic, acetic, malic, tartaric and any other strange acids that can be found in some calculators/spreadsheets

Now despite what some on the other side of the pond will tell you you can get acids in per cent by volume.

with sulphuric this makes a real difference. 25% by weight sulphuric is substantially weaker than 25% by volume sulphuric.

If you start with the concentrated forms at least you can dilute them to achieve an approximately known concentration which can easily be assayed.

if you start with one of the % acids such as 25% you do not know what you are getting. Search for sulphuric and murphy on some brewing forums and when done you will realise that a leading supplier of brewing materials just has not got a clue what it is selling.

It would be great if a that excellent ingredients supplier in the swindon area would stock this as I'm sure he would at least spend out on checking the strength of the material he is selling.

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 21:49
by Gethin79
Good info, thanks.

That makes me think I'll go for the 96% concentration instead. I have goggles etc etc, so think I should be able to dilute safely. Slowly but surely, adding acid to water, stirring and cooling between each small addition.

I can see the logic there. At least I'll be able to know what strength my solution will be.

What's the best thing to store this stuff in? Being that it's corrosive I'm guessing that some containers won't be suitable.

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 22:14
by wallybrew
Once it is diluted a polythene bottle HDPE or a branded one such as Azlon will be fine.

Somewhere on one of these forums is a write up of how to safely dilute sulphuric acid and hopefully Tony will link to it again.

If you are going for the APC pure I think its spec lists all but one item for purity as E513 sulphuric acid, which I believe is selenium. As it complies with the other parts of the spec it is quite probably that it complies with the level for selenium.

E513 being an E number means it has purity criteria laid down by the EU that it has to comply with for its use in food

COMMISSION DIRECTIVE 96/77/EC of 2 December 1996
laying down specific purity criteria on food additives other than colours and sweeteners

This has been amended since then and there is a consolidated version

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 17:16
by Gethin79
I was wondering about if it was good grade or not, given the list of trace ingredients...one being arsenic. But it's in such low quantities, I'm sure it's fine.

I've slept on it, and think I will start with the 25% concentration. I may not know its exact strength, but hopefully using a calculator I can get into the right area with it and adjust the next time if I'm out. It'll save me diluting the concentrated stuff, which I don't fancy doing much...and I don't have a lot of time on my hands to do these things at the moment...haven't brewed for ages and run out of stock now. :shock:

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 17:25
by Raptor
As I said in the other thread, why don't you contact them to find out if it is food safe or not?

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 17:30
by Gethin79
I have. I'm just waiting for a reply. :thumb:

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 17:50
by wallybrew
25% if by weight it is about 3.15 molar
25% if by volume it is about 4.7 molar
1L is £21.8

The 2 molar is £9.04 per litre and a known strength, well one hopes so :whistle:

Now if the 25% is by weight then the 2 molar works out cheaper £4.52 per mole v £6.97
and if it is by volume it still works out cheaper £4.52 v £4.64

Are the postage rates different?

if you use the 2molar then you would need 1.5mL per litre to reduce your alkalinity by 150

Note also that 2M sulphuric is stronger than CRS by a factor of 4/3.66

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 18:27
by Gethin79
I hadn't spotted that price difference! :doh:

The 25% is £6 delivery, the 96% is £8.25. (For 1 litre)

So the 96% works out cheaper.....

The only other consideration I have is that I don't have any suitable containers as yet to be decanting the 96% stuff into safely when measuring it out, so I'd have to buy that too, but once I've got it, ive got it, I suppose.

Going to have to read up on the "molar" thing...it's confusing me at the moment, and I hate not knowing things!!!! :D

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 18:54
by Gethin79
Well APC Pure have been completely unhelpful.

After asking if the sulphuric they supply is food grade or not, their reply was " we are a supply only company, therefore you must research the product fully before proceeding".

Now I'm all for honesty, which is great...they don't know the answer to my question...but surely somebody supplying products such as these should have knowledge of what they are supplying? Don't think I'll be using them to buy anything. They could at least have given me the details of their supplier or the manufacturer.

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 20:21
by wallybrew
Have you located their terms and conditions?

According to this they are not just a supply company.

If they are a supply company and deem to be dealing business to business then apparently the sale of goods act etc do not apply.

I am having this issue with ecatering (google) who have sold me a sous vide bath that the manufacturer deems to run from 5 to 95 but has since been disputed by them as being only for use from 55 to 80ish. This is because mine has missing ranges and they do not agree and have stated that I do not have faulty goods despite never having tested mine.

So beware, reselling or selling as a business to business may give you f… all rights.

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 20:48
by Gethin79
That is very interesting...I think I'm going to pull them up on this given the link you just posted. This is the exact reply they gave me:

Hi
Unfortunately we do not offer advice on any chemical applications as we are a supply only company.
Please research the product fully before proceeding

Something is amiss here. Thanks for pointing that out. :thumb:

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 22:34
by Goulders
They appear to be a distributor, but the law is no different as if Currys were selling you a TV. If you are buying as a consumer, then the sale of goods act applies and they cannot opt out of the implied terms of fitness for purpose, as described etc.

I noticed that the home page says they have material data sheets they should be able to supply you with. Have you asked for those?

Re: My water results are in.......

PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 22:48
by Gethin79
They have those available on the website, which I looked at, but didn't answer my query.

As you say, they should be able to tell me if what they are selling is fit for the purpose for which I intend it to be used. :thumb: