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Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 17:46
by Gethin79
NickW wrote:Gethin could you provide links to the acids you found?


The links are further up the thread mate, but I'm not sure if that sulphuric acid is suitable. It is advertised as for gold cleaning? Is sulphuric acid all the same? Probably not!

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 19:41
by Raptor
25% sulphuric acid is available from here (https://apcpure.com/product/sulphuric_acid_25 )

you'll need to contact them to see if it is food grade though.

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2015 18:01
by domejunky
I live in Kent. Have V. Hard water and a very high residual alkalinity - I asked my water authority for a figure and after a bit of email tennis they obliged. I've stored my numbers in brewers friend if you search for Canterbury.

I had access to CRS by the litre when I was working for a brewery in Tonbridge. After reading 'Water' by Palmer and Kaminski I decided to try just boiling my water. I now have a regime where I boil until 1 litre has evaporated. This get's my mash pH to 5.6. But leaves some calcium behind. Since I batch sparge I don't have to worry as much about leaching tannins. Other than that a touch of gypsum is all I use to make the hops 'pop'

Also, I brew mostly pales...

Pete

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:14
by Eric
domejunky wrote:I live in Kent. Have V. Hard water and a very high residual alkalinity - I asked my water authority for a figure and after a bit of email tennis they obliged. I've stored my numbers in brewers friend if you search for Canterbury.

I had access to CRS by the litre when I was working for a brewery in Tonbridge. After reading 'Water' by Palmer and Kaminski I decided to try just boiling my water. I now have a regime where I boil until 1 litre has evaporated. This get's my mash pH to 5.6. But leaves some calcium behind. Since I batch sparge I don't have to worry as much about leaching tannins. Other than that a touch of gypsum is all I use to make the hops 'pop'

Also, I brew mostly pales...

Pete


Interesting comments. Out of curiosity, what value of pH do you find of your final batch runnings?

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:20
by domejunky
I've never tested. Interesting I shall next time. The few times I fly sparged the tannin was very apparent in the flavour of the runnings. I also found my palette more sensitive than a refractometer at the brewery - in the sense that i'd taste tannin long before the runnings were down to the magic number.

I am lazy wherever I can get away with it...

Pete

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 14:19
by Eric
domejunky wrote: I also found my palette more sensitive than a refractometer at the brewery - in the sense that i'd taste tannin long before the runnings were down to the magic number.


Pete


Now that is interesting, I can't taste tannins in runnings, my taste buds let me down, can't even taste sugars some time before reaching your "magic number".
Tell me more changes done since the brewery and what in particular from Palmer and Kominsky decided you to abandon acid treatment to favour boiling, particularly the "magic number" for evaporation of 1 litre?

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 14:41
by domejunky
Well it was trial and error: I noticed my efficiency dropping when I used paler malts. So I started measuring pH. I was in the 5.8-6 range. I used CRS for a few brews and it pulled the mash pH to around 5.4, but I noticed that the fermentation wasn't as vigorous and I didn't reach my FG. I also got a very, very slight mineral flavour. I read about the Germans not being able to add acids, so they use acid malt, or boil. I tried it and it brought my mash pH to about 5.5. Didn't cure the fermentation though.
At this point I starred using the water calculator in brewers friend and on Jim's beer kit as they had an adjustment for boiling your water. They suggested the need to boost the calcium after boiling. The Water book said this was mainly for yeast health. So I tried half boiling, or boiling for less and less time each brew. I found a sweet spot where the fermentation came good and my my mash pH was 5.6 - this coincided with 1 litre of evaporation.
I borrowed some gypsum from the brewery, as I noticed they put it in almost everything - and Zainasheff had been going on about how on almost every 'can you brew it' the brewery had said 'chuck a bit of gypsum in there' - this sorted out my muddied hop flavours.

So now I feel I'm in quite a good place with minimal intervention...

Pete

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 14:54
by Aleman
Yet wih CRS / Hydrochloric / Sulphuric acids they reduce alkalinity but leave the calcium untouched :scratch:

It would be interesting to know what your liquor profile was before and after boiling though

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 16:20
by domejunky
That's not my understanding:

'Acids....convert all of the carbonates and bicarbonates in solution to carbonates to carbonic acid...'

I thought that was getting rid of the calcium carbonate the main source of my residual alkalinity...?

Pete

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 16:37
by domejunky
Ok. I'm wrong. I read up on phosphoric acid and thought the same applied to sulphuric and hydrochloric. In terms of precipitating calcium.

But CRS contains all three, no? I certainly saw a precipitate. And put my fermentation issues down to this. The Water book says it's 'apatite'?

Pete

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 16:52
by Aleman
CRS is a blend of sulphuric and hydrochloric acids. If using that you should not get a precipitate . . . Unless you sulphate levels are so high the calcium sulphate exceeds it's solubility . . Which is around 2300ppm at 20C . . I think . . Still bloody high though.

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 17:07
by domejunky
I'm going to revisit CRS experiments. Just to be clear, I was using AMS which I read somewhere, but from an Aleman post, was the same thing as CRS...?

Pete

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 17:38
by domejunky
Totally hijacked the thread...

I was just looking at my planned CRS/AMS additions, and noticed this:

Screen Shot 2015-06-30 at 17.25.05.png
Screen Shot 2015-06-30 at 17.25.05.png (23.31 KiB) Viewed 3911 times


I brought my AMS home in a sodium hydroxide container - I thought I'd cleaned it - could this be the source of the precipitate, mineral flavour and poor fermentation...?

Pete

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 18:17
by Aleman
I can't say Pete, It depends on how much you'd cleaned out, but I would have bet that the CRS/AMS would have neutralised the Hydroxide leaving you with sodium chloride/ sodium sulphate and water of course . . .plus your CRS/AMS (Same Thing) would have been slightly diluted.

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 07:42
by NickW
I was wondering the same thing about AMS and CRS. I got AMS off the malt miller. It says "contains sulphuric acid" on the label... but doesn't mention hydrochloric.... is this more to do with labelling laws than an ingredients list?

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 09:11
by Aleman
Nick, They are the same, CRS from Brupaks is repackaged AMS from Murphys, and DLS from Brupaks is DWB from Murphys.

If you want to confirm this take a look at the water treatment pages at the Brupaks website and then the liquor treatment pages from the Murphy and Son website.

Well you could until Murphys updated their website :(

Re: My water treatment journey starts here!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 09:36
by NickW
Cheers aleman. It is was I expected