Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

While Beer is 90-97% water, it is a very tricky subject.

Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Lanky94 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 01:44

Evening all.

I have just received a copy of Terry Foster's book..........Porter.

I have only skim read it so far, but noticed the stated ideal water profile. Terry suggest the following:

Calcium 30 to 60 ppm ( seems low to me)
Mg 10 to 20
Na 60 to 120
Bicarbonate 100 to 150
Chloride 40 to 90
Sulfate 50 to 100
TDS (I think this is total dissolved solids) 300 to 450.

I would like to brew a porter soon. Thoughts on this profile are welcomed.
User avatar
Lanky94
Brewer
 
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2016 02:58

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Aleman » Wed Jan 17, 2018 22:17

Lanky94 wrote:Thoughts on this profile are welcomed.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:whistle:

please note:The use of punctuation, bold, underlining, italics, and different sized type, follows the convention used in writing, for many years, to place emphasis on the point being made, and to highlight the importance of that point in the opinion of the author. It is not the intention of the author to shout, if that was the case the author would adopt the, much more recent, convention of using all capital letters.
Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
User avatar
Aleman
Curmudgeonly Brewer
 
Posts: 2857
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 00:28
Location: Mashing In Blackpool, Lancs, UK

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Eric » Wed Jan 17, 2018 22:57

Aleman wrote:
Lanky94 wrote:Thoughts on this profile are welcomed.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:whistle:


No, I wouldn't use that either.
User avatar
Eric
Brewer
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 19:12

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Jeltz » Thu Jan 18, 2018 00:12

which begs the question, what would you go for instead?

Regards Nic
User avatar
Jeltz
Admin
 
Posts: 2386
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:05
Location: Somerset

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Aleman » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:20

Alkalinity at no more than 125
Calcium up at 180,
Balanced sulphate to chloride ratio, aiming for around 100 sulphate as a minimum, so around the same level of chloride as well.
Ignore magnesium and sodium

please note:The use of punctuation, bold, underlining, italics, and different sized type, follows the convention used in writing, for many years, to place emphasis on the point being made, and to highlight the importance of that point in the opinion of the author. It is not the intention of the author to shout, if that was the case the author would adopt the, much more recent, convention of using all capital letters.
Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
User avatar
Aleman
Curmudgeonly Brewer
 
Posts: 2857
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 00:28
Location: Mashing In Blackpool, Lancs, UK

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby PeeBee » Thu Jan 18, 2018 13:20

Lanky94 wrote:Evening all.

I have just received a copy of Terry Foster's book..........Porter. ...

I initially received plenty of hilarity broaching this same subject, but at least you're getting some helpful suggestions now. I dug out my Terry Foster book (not read much) but couldn't find the water recommendations you repeated? Although Terry is English born the book is very US, 'craft brewing', biased with plenty of fanciful 'modern' ideas about 'porter' - you'd be better off with the Durden Park Beer Circle recipes or those by Ron Patterson (although I can't entirely agree with some of Ron's deductions).

If you go with "Aleman's" water recommendations: When I tried to get Calcium up for my recent porter recipe 80ppm was the best I could manage. I'd gone with a recommendation to bias chloride over sulphate but only managed about 85ppm chloride to 50ppm sulphate. As "Aleman" says, ignore sodium and magnesium (120ppm sodium? That seems a lot even if I was putting it on my chips). Alkalinity? If using a calculator (I use Bru'n Water) you can do this last and just add alkaline salts to get the calculated pH about right (only added to mash water) - I went for pH5.5 (not lower) which was 140ppm bicarbonate (I was using slaked lime and sodium bicarbonate - do yourself a favour and don't use insoluble chalk): No idea what that is as 'alkalinity' because Bru'n Water doesn't visibly calculate it, not that I'd be any the wiser knowing it and I figured I don't need to know it either.
User avatar
PeeBee
Brewer
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 16:57
Location: North Wales

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Aleman » Thu Jan 18, 2018 14:36

I just don't understand why you can't get more than 80ppm Calcium! Simply adding 0.275g of calcium sulphate and 0.315 calcium chloride per litre will increase calcium by 150ppm, sulphate by 153 and chloride by 151.

I know you have a spreadsheet and you are going to use it no matter what I say, but sticking rigidly to what it suggests, and indeed using it in an arse about fashion without actually understanding what it is you are doing or trying to achieve, is frankly pointless. Actually giving advice based on what you do, when it is actually so much simpler in reality is just going to lead to people thing water adjustment is complex.

please note:The use of punctuation, bold, underlining, italics, and different sized type, follows the convention used in writing, for many years, to place emphasis on the point being made, and to highlight the importance of that point in the opinion of the author. It is not the intention of the author to shout, if that was the case the author would adopt the, much more recent, convention of using all capital letters.
Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
User avatar
Aleman
Curmudgeonly Brewer
 
Posts: 2857
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 00:28
Location: Mashing In Blackpool, Lancs, UK

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby PeeBee » Thu Jan 18, 2018 15:14

Aleman wrote:I just don't understand why you can't get more than 80ppm Calcium! ...

I knew I'd wind you up! Went ahead anyway though.

I could have put a bit more effort into bumping the calcium up, I just didn't like how the other values (anions) were running away. I'm chicken?

As for doing it "arse about fashion": I do have a fleeting idea of what alkalinity is about with respect to water treatment, but I found just using a calculator and targeting a particular pH with alkaline additions was way more simple. So why worry myself with the complex understanding of alkalinity? I think the modern trend of bandying around all this "alkalinity" baloney has far more negative impact on why people think water treatment is complex.

Your first post on this thread wasn't pointless then?

Last edited by PeeBee on Thu Jan 18, 2018 16:31, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
PeeBee
Brewer
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 16:57
Location: North Wales

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Aleman » Thu Jan 18, 2018 15:41

PeeBee wrote:Your first post on this thread wasn't pointless then?

The OP asked for thoughts on the profile, and those emoticons expressed my thoughts perfectly.

Good idea on 'alkaline additions' BTW. You are aware that in Germany to get around the Reinheitsgebot they used staked lime to eliminate bicarbonate, and by adding slaked lime and sodium bicarbonate together all you are doing is in effect increasing sodium (I actually seem to recall it also reduced calcium, but would have to look it up to check) not to worry as long as you get the pH value right in "The Spreadsheet" ;)

please note:The use of punctuation, bold, underlining, italics, and different sized type, follows the convention used in writing, for many years, to place emphasis on the point being made, and to highlight the importance of that point in the opinion of the author. It is not the intention of the author to shout, if that was the case the author would adopt the, much more recent, convention of using all capital letters.
Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
User avatar
Aleman
Curmudgeonly Brewer
 
Posts: 2857
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 00:28
Location: Mashing In Blackpool, Lancs, UK

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Aleman » Thu Jan 18, 2018 15:47

PeeBee wrote:I could have put a bit more effort into bumping the calcium up, I just didn't like how the other values (cations) were running away. I'm chicken?

The only cation added when using calcium sulphate and calcium chloride is calcium! sulphate and chloride are anions If you are concerned about the values they are reaching there is no need to be ... Unless you are a devout believer in "The Spreadsheet" with no reference to any other, non US, sources on brewing liquor ... Murphys have a good guide on cation and anion levels in relation to brewing liquors, I don't agree fully with those, but I'm more in agreement with them that sources that imply if you have anything in your water at all you will produce bad beer!

please note:The use of punctuation, bold, underlining, italics, and different sized type, follows the convention used in writing, for many years, to place emphasis on the point being made, and to highlight the importance of that point in the opinion of the author. It is not the intention of the author to shout, if that was the case the author would adopt the, much more recent, convention of using all capital letters.
Albert Einstein wrote:Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.
User avatar
Aleman
Curmudgeonly Brewer
 
Posts: 2857
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 00:28
Location: Mashing In Blackpool, Lancs, UK

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby PeeBee » Thu Jan 18, 2018 16:30

Aleman wrote:... sulphate and chloride are anions ...

Oops. Silly me! I'll go back and edit that...

Last edited by PeeBee on Thu Jan 18, 2018 17:18, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
PeeBee
Brewer
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 16:57
Location: North Wales

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Jeltz » Thu Jan 18, 2018 16:54

FWIW when I brew my porter I do about 35% RO and 65% tap water, and treat with half a campden tablet. I also add about a half tea spoon of gypsum to the grist. My water profile is always reasonable close to that published here by Bristol Water

The resulting beer is a crowd pleaser.

Regards Nic
User avatar
Jeltz
Admin
 
Posts: 2386
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:05
Location: Somerset

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Eric » Thu Jan 18, 2018 17:53

Jeltz wrote:FWIW when I brew my porter I do about 35% RO and 65% tap water, and treat with half a campden tablet. I also add about a half tea spoon of gypsum to the grist. My water profile is always reasonable close to that published here by Bristol Water

The resulting beer is a crowd pleaser.


Another Americanised water profile for a one time traditional British beer.
User avatar
Eric
Brewer
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 19:12

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby PeeBee » Thu Jan 18, 2018 18:00

Aleman wrote:... by adding slaked lime and sodium bicarbonate together all you are doing is in effect increasing sodium (I actually seem to recall it also reduced calcium, but would have to look it up to check) ...

I thought I knew sodium would increase which is why I also used slaked lime to keep sodium from increasing too much (slaked lime is a pain - you are not to add it directly to the water - so I use sodium bicarb until I think there is no option but finish with something else). But you are saying the two together have an undesirable effect (on calcium as well as sodium)? Please enlighten us?

You've told me before there is such a thing as potassium bicarbonate if worried about the sodium. I can get it (EBay) but haven't as yet.
User avatar
PeeBee
Brewer
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 16:57
Location: North Wales

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby london_lhr » Thu Jan 18, 2018 20:44

A good read regarding treating water with slaked lime.......

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... laked_lime
User avatar
london_lhr
Brewer
 
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:07
Location: Dengie, Essex

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Dennis King » Thu Jan 18, 2018 21:19

To the best of my knowledge Bru'n water preaches American thinking on English beers and tend to be a long way off what commercial English brewers really use. I would trust the word of Aleman and Eric over Bru'n water any day.
User avatar
Dennis King
Moderator
 
Posts: 3536
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 17:20
Location: ESSEX.

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby PeeBee » Thu Jan 18, 2018 21:28

london_lhr wrote:A good read regarding treating water with slaked lime.......

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... laked_lime

Thanks. Well that looks like my bedtime reading sorted for a while.
User avatar
PeeBee
Brewer
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 16:57
Location: North Wales

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby PeeBee » Thu Jan 18, 2018 21:56

Dennis King wrote:... I would trust the word of Aleman and Eric over Bru'n water any day.

Aye, but they're not letting on what that "word" might be in this thread. I'm just hearing unhelpful snipes. At least I'm saving "Lanky94" from them even if my stepping in because of their reticence might (?) have led me to issue some dud information. But all the pH predictions for my beers have been fairly good (within 0.1) with a few exceptions, but those exceptions didn't include slaked lime.
User avatar
PeeBee
Brewer
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 16:57
Location: North Wales

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Eric » Fri Jan 19, 2018 00:29

Lanky94 wrote:Evening all.

I have just received a copy of Terry Foster's book..........Porter.

I have only skim read it so far, but noticed the stated ideal water profile. Terry suggest the following:

Calcium 30 to 60 ppm ( seems low to me)
Mg 10 to 20
Na 60 to 120
Bicarbonate 100 to 150
Chloride 40 to 90
Sulfate 50 to 100
TDS (I think this is total dissolved solids) 300 to 450.

I would like to brew a porter soon. Thoughts on this profile are welcomed.


PM sent.
User avatar
Eric
Brewer
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 19:12

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Kev888 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 00:40

Lanky94 wrote:Thoughts on this profile are welcomed.

Well both Aleman and Eric have given their opinion, and you're unlikely to get more informed answers. But FWIW Terry's is not my idea of a stout's water profile.

To be fair to him, preferences do differ from country to country so it depends on the target audience. As you noticed, the calcium is a particular give-away there - it isn't really what would be used by a British or Irish brewer for almost any beer (we tend to have rather more to our liquor).

Aleman's second post gives you the kind of profile I would expect for a porter, perhaps rather more chloride for me but thats only personal preference (and depends on the sub-style of stout, too). For most of us it is pretty easy to achieve something in that ball-park with normal methods of treatment, unless you choose to complicate it or use methods not suited to British water and beer.

Kev
User avatar
Kev888
Brewer
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 15:32
Location: UK

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby orlando » Fri Jan 19, 2018 13:10

The two biggest leaps forward in my brewing have come about through temperature control and water treatment. Being a fan of British Beer I have followed the recommendations for them. But not before being seduced by US sites and Brun' Water particularly. It was giving up using the latter that meant that I could finally benefit from the difference British levels of alkalinity and British levels of salts could provide. The biggest eye opener being Calcium levels. The point made earlier about "tastes" is pertinent, if you grow up drinking bland lager styles with practically bugger all in them, you probably do "over react" when faced with the "true" flavour. What I can't understand, and frankly never will, is if you want to brew a beer the way a particular Country, moreover brewery, does then why would you compromise on any of the ways in which they achieve it? :roll:

I am "The Little Red Brooster"

Fermenting: Harve(y)st, I Go Mild
Conditioning: St. Petersburg (RIS)
Drinking: Black Dog, Equinoxe,
Up Next:
User avatar
orlando
Brewer
 
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:20

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby PeeBee » Fri Jan 19, 2018 14:39

london_lhr wrote:A good read regarding treating water with slaked lime... ...

Thanks again for that link. I've still a bit more (repeat) reading to do, and I've expanded out to searching for more information on the subject around the I'net. But what I've gleaned so far:

While I consider it a pain, there is a very good reason for adding Lime to the dry mash ingredients and not the (weakly buffered) mash water. By doing so I don't see this decrease of hardness due to calcium precipitation (which needs the pH to get well up), and adding the Lime instead into a (strongly buffered) mash mix ensures this calcium precipitation just isn't going to happen. Seems to explain why I'm not seeing issues with adding Lime (and bicarbonate).

Seems the issue was just a non-issue. "Thanks" to whoever it was trying to complicate my life with that one.

Admittedly I have tap water with not a lot in it and very soft. But if I had harder water adding Lime wouldn't be an issue anyway because I wouldn't be tempted to add it, nor bicarbonate.

So I'll continue adding Lime (on the rare occassions I might need it). But as Lime has to be added "just so" I'll probably look to replace it with something. I'll continue to use "Bru'n Water" and my back-to-front pH determination that saves me from these trendy "alkalinity" concerns. I'll not be worried about extending my water treatment advise to anyone who might need it. And I might be inclined to move to a more minerally water as that seems to be to "British" tastes as can be gleaned from this thread.
User avatar
PeeBee
Brewer
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 16:57
Location: North Wales

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Joe1002 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 15:01

PeeBee wrote:Aye, but they're not letting on what that "word" might be in this thread. I'm just hearing unhelpful snipes.


Stop writing things like this then:

PeeBee wrote:I knew I'd wind you up! Went ahead anyway though.

A fine beer may be judged with only one sip, but it's better to be thoroughly sure.
User avatar
Joe1002
Moderator
 
Posts: 2758
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:01
Location: Essex

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby PeeBee » Fri Jan 19, 2018 15:14

Joe1002 wrote:
PeeBee wrote:Aye, but they're not letting on what that "word" might be in this thread. I'm just hearing unhelpful snipes.


Stop writing things like this then:

PeeBee wrote:I knew I'd wind you up! Went ahead anyway though.

Granted; I needn't of added that latter line. But I wasn't referring to "unhelpful snipes" at me.
User avatar
PeeBee
Brewer
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2016 16:57
Location: North Wales

Re: Porter water profile. Terry Foster.

Postby Jeltz » Fri Jan 19, 2018 15:29

Eric wrote:
Jeltz wrote:FWIW when I brew my porter I do about 35% RO and 65% tap water, and treat with half a campden tablet. I also add about a half tea spoon of gypsum to the grist. My water profile is always reasonable close to that published here by Bristol Water

The resulting beer is a crowd pleaser.


Another Americanised water profile for a one time traditional British beer.

Just realised i put gypsum and it should have been calcium chloride.

I do tend to use gypsum with US styles or if I've knocked back the alkalinity using HCl and want to balance the ratios. That said I'm getting used to using RO to dilute the tap water as I have a strong suspicion that buying acids will become more expensive and difficult before long as so politicians can be seen to be tacking action over the rise in acid attacks.

Regards Nic
User avatar
Jeltz
Admin
 
Posts: 2386
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:05
Location: Somerset

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest