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Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 21:10
by mark1964
ill re use the waste water im planning on getting a tds meter to see when the filters need replacing its so easy to adjust the water from an RO unit alot less bother than my unpredictable water supply

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 07:17
by Aleman
It is easy to deal with an unpredictable supply, it does require regular analysis of water samples for a time, but when you factor in the running costs of an RO unit let alone the purchase price, that outlay is reasonable.

My alkalinity varies between 16 and 135 and calcium between 20 and 70. All I do is use a alkalinity test and a TCS reading to allow me to make a very educated guess at what today's brewing water contains. . . . Oddly enough it actually agrees with the same water sent for analysis pretty closely.

Frankly if you can taste the difference between water containing 150mBar of sulphate and one with 200 your taste buds are way better than mine :)

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 08:41
by mark1964
As ive started using Bru n Water ive found that using my existing water is very difficult to balance. I have the figures from Yorkshire water which no doubt are inaccurate. I have to use the min average and high results to even get close to a profile and even then im having to add vast amounts of acid malt to the mash to get the Ph anywhere near correct. I think an RO unit will help with this as ill have pure water to start with so can build up a profile from there using salts and acid.

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:20
by Aleman
mark1964 wrote:As ive started using Bru n Water ive found that using my existing water is very difficult to balance. I have the figures from Yorkshire water which no doubt are inaccurate. I have to use the min average and high results to even get close to a profile.

Well that raises two issues, firstly rigidly following any recommendations for a beer style or water profile will always lead to issues, do you know where those profiles came from and what makes you believe that they are accurate and what the brewers of the beer or region actually used? Secondly, without an accurate profile using any sort of software to give you an estimate of what a predicted mash pH may or may not be is completely fcuking pointless! Have you never heard of Gigos law?

Gigo wrote:Garbage In, Garbage Out!

If you don't start with decent data, everything you do from then on is wasting your time, and, to be blunt, anyone else's who is trying to help you!

mark1964 wrote:and even then im having to add vast amounts of acid malt to the mash to get the Ph anywhere near correct.

Well acid malt is quite frankly fcuking useless for pH correction except for a small variety of circumstances, and the beers you brew with the water you have are WAY outside those circumstances. You are using the wrong tool for the job you are trying to break a 6" concrete slab with a toffee hammer!

mark1964 wrote:I think an RO unit will help with this as ill have pure water to start with so can build up a profile from there using salts and acid.

You don't need to do this, it is a completely unnecessary requirement. A cheap RO Unit (Available for around 100 quid) will take a couple of days to produce enough RO water for a brew length (In spite of the quoted daily US gallonage ;) ) That is 4 water profiles reports from Phoenix analytical. and then don't forget it's running costs, rejection rate of around 10 to 1 (Uses 10 litres for every litre of RO water produced) hope you are not on a water meter. Membranes will need to be replaced as you are in a hard water area that could be as frequent at every 3-6 months. Cartridges Pre and post membrane will need to be replaced if just to protect the membrane. You also need to know that these things cannot be switched on and off when you want water to brew, if you do then you risk a lot of bacterial fouling. If you go for a more expensive kit to reduce rejection rates, improve purity of output, increase rate of production, reduce replacement frequency you are looking at over 600 quid. . . . That is a lot of water analyses.

The costs soon add up, and to me it seems that you are going down this route to simply avoid having a professional water report carried out. I know it seems an extravagance, but armed with a set of results that show the trends in your water (even just a max and a min), the alkalinity, as measured by a salifert kit, and a TDS reading, you can come up with an educated guess as to what is in your water, and enter that into Bru'nwater, or whatever software you like, to give you a much better idea of what you need to add.

I guess it comes down to what sort of a brewer / chef you are, do you follow recipes to the letter, or do you prefer creative freedom. If you prefer creative freedom then knowing your 'ingredients', like water, and how to use them appropriately is something you need to understand. If you prefer to follow a recipe (Like those profiles within software), then the RO route might be appropriate, but no chef has ever won a Michelin star with Pot Noodles!

Sorry for being less tactful than I usually am, sometimes being frank and blunt can be the only way to get things across. :hat:

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:56
by mark1964
Your probably right Tony im brewing a pale ale tomorrow and ive used my tap water for the brew. Ive also used bru n water for the calculations. Its just the 3 different figures from the water report that get me if i enter the lowest figures i can balance the cation/anion ratio within 0.4 of each other but because the water alkilinity differs so much. Then because the water wont balance i have to mess around entering the average figures then the highest to make it balance. Then theres the problem of reducing the mash and sparge liquor to the right PH levels. The sparge i can do with acid but the mash is more difficult even with the salts added to within bru n waters limits. So i use acid malt to sort that. This way of using bru n water is what ive been advised to do off a mate so im only following what they have told me. I will get my water analyzed by wally in the next 2 weeks as i think its a must. Maybe you have convinced me that a RO unit is not a good idea after all and yes were on a water meter lol.

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 14:24
by orlando
cyclops wrote: Phosphoric acid will precipitate the calcium so is not good for our style of beers.


Case in point, the picture shows exactly this. What you see is what precipitated out of my HLT.

Image

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 19:39
by HTH1975
Just get a water analysis from Murphys (via BrewUK) - it's £30 and they send you a breakdown of your existing water profile versus what you want for various styles, with the appropriate salts to add to achieve this. Easy peasy. I've seen a big improvement in my beers since doing this.

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 20:04
by Dennis King
HTH1975 wrote:Just get a water analysis from Murphys (via BrewUK) - it's £30 and they send you a breakdown of your existing water profile versus what you want for various styles, with the appropriate salts to add to achieve this. Easy peasy. I've seen a big improvement in my beers since doing this.


Wallybrews is £25 and is more concise, Sodium, potassium and phosphate are also included.

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 20:12
by cyclops
Dennis King wrote:
HTH1975 wrote:Just get a water analysis from Murphys (via BrewUK) - it's £30 and they send you a breakdown of your existing water profile versus what you want for various styles, with the appropriate salts to add to achieve this. Easy peasy. I've seen a big improvement in my beers since doing this.


Wallybrews is £25 and is more concise, Sodium, potassium and phosphate are also included.

And probably more accurate than Murphys

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 20:15
by Aleman
Only probably?

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 13:56
by andysale
Sorry to raise an old topic
But where can you get a Wallybrews water report from, mention in above posts.
I've searched the web with no results
Thanks

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 14:02
by Goulders
You need to PM him on here or enquiries@phoenix-analytical.co.uk

Re: USING ACID MALT

PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 14:03
by andysale
Thanks