[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 488: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4765: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3891)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4767: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3891)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4768: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3891)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4769: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3891)
The Brewing Forum • View topic - CSE Chemistry Grade 2
Page 1 of 1

CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 11:08
by jonnymorris
You'll need to be 45+ to know what CSEs were but, in short, if you weren't fit to take an O-level (GCSE) you took a CSE. With only achieving a grade 2, it's fair to say Chemistry wasn't my strong suit. Now that's said, I've been looking at my water and am getting flashbacks to Mr Egan's Chemistry class.

I have a Salifert Kit and have tested my water's alkalinity (or hardness?), 165mg/L as CaCO3. I've also got the following from my water report;

Ca 59
Mg 9.6
Na 31
SO4 57
Cl 28

I have treated my water in the past using Jim's Liquor Treatment Calculator by GW to establish I needed c.30ml of CRS, c.8g of gypsum and a dash of calcium chloride in 35L of liquor for a bitter. I've been going through it again and have realised I'm way out of my depth. I had a look at Bru'n Water which is even more in depth and BeerSmith2 which seems a bit too simplistic.

I'm happy to give Murphy's water testing service a go (if it's any good and they're still doing it) or can someone give us a few pointers based on my water profile above? My default brew is a malty English bitter, fairly low on bitterness and not too hoppy.

Thanks.

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 11:29
by mark1964
ive been using Jims treatment calc for years its not 100% but ive certainly made some good beers from using it. Now i dont add salts just treat with acids

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 12:57
by StevieDS
I recommend you have another look at Bru'n water. While it can seem a little daunting at first it's fairly straightforward once you've played about with it. Have a look at the water knowledge page, it explains things fairly simply.

Your low mineral content water profile is a great starting point! Put very simply, I would increase the Ca to 100ppm or so using calcium chloride for malty beers or gypsum for hoppy beers. Remove chlorine with campden tab. Adjust the bicarbonate level to bring the mash ph into the right area (enter your grain bill in Bru'n water and it'll tell you the expected ph). Bingo, job done. It doesn't need to be complicated :thumb:

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 14:08
by Dennis King
Murphy's have gained a bad reputation in the last few years. I strongly recommend using service. I have also read that Bru'n water is too American orientated and not to good for British profiles.

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 15:03
by StevieDS

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 15:13
by Dennis King

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 20:01
by jonnymorris

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2016 22:36
by Good Ed

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 00:14
by StevieDS

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 13:09
by jonnymorris

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 14:06
by Aleman

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 14:22
by jonnymorris
Tony, you are the man. Thanks. It's interesting and encouraging that you have agreed with the additions GW's calculator gave me when I last tried it; CRS, gypsum and calcium chloride.

I'm currently reading through the water chemistry info on Bru'n Water (slow work day) and will go back to that spreadsheet with renewed vigor.

Thanks all again.

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 18:17
by jonnymorris
Brief update on my chemistry lesson for the record;

I've donated to Mr Bru'n Water and now have a more up-to-date version of the spreadsheet with CRS as an option and have also contacted wallybrew with a view to getting my water tested.

Playing around with Bru'n Water I can get my alkalinity down to c.40 with CRS but then my RA is low. I don't want any more sulphate so gypsum is out and if I add calcium chloride to reduce the sulphate/chrloride ratio (aiming to reduce from 1.7 to nearer 1.0 to reduce bitterness and bring out the malt) my calcium goes up (naturally) which then reduces RA even further. In short, whilst I have a much better idea of what's going on its bloody complicated!

I brewed today with just CRS to reduce the alkalinity - keeping it simple - and feel much better about having control over at least one* of the variables.

Mr Egan (chemistry teacher) would be impressed.

*make that three; bicarbonate, chloride and sulphate

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 18:26
by Aleman
And this is when you need someone to say

"Ignore all that guff about Residual Alkalinity, and any warnings that come up"

Just a hint, a Burton profile treated to reduce alkalinity (bicarbonate) has a low residual alkalinity . . . Negative in fact, it's not a problem, if you treat your water properly it is actually desired. Another example the 'Pilsen Profile' has low residual alkalinity, in fact you have to lower it further with a calcium salt to help the mash pH fall in the 5.3-5.6 range ;) . . .Two massively different profiles but with a low residual alkalinity

Residual alkalinity is a calculated value from a theoretical concept, and never one I actually worry about, or look at. I worry about three things

Alkalinity
Calcium
sulphate : chloride ratio.

Get the first two right the mash pH falls where I want it, use the ratio to balance dry/hoppy : full/malty flavours.

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 21:48
by Good Ed

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 20:14
by jonnymorris
Regarding the sulphate : chloride ratio;

Would you have any concerns driving the chloride concentration up to 175ppm or even 200ppm with the aim of achieving a ratio of 1:2 (my sulphate concentration is 100ppm)?

Bru'n Water suggests a recommended chloride limit of 100ppm and that this should actually be reduced further with a high sulphate concentration. If this is true then I'd need to reduce sulphate rather than increase chloride to get anywhere near 1:2 and promote a malty profile which sounds like it might be tricky.

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2016 23:48
by Good Ed

Re: CSE Chemistry Grade 2

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:29
by Eric